Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[PBX Ronin 23]

If you standardise the equipment, then the talent will show. Right now everyone tries to "even the play field" by raising the BPS they can shoot. Go the other route. If everyone has the same "base" limit of 11-15 BPS, then you can work within that. EVERYONE start at teh same speed, now it's what you do with it.
-Tyger

Agreed.

[Tyger]

One players ability to pull 20 BPS legally is and advanatge over the guy shooting 16 BPS towards him. I bet there are some teams that are stuck with using mech guns or somethng like that, what about them? It woudl only be fair to let them have some sort of reactive trigger to hit that 15 BPS cap.

I mean, no offense Tyger, your a great guy and all, but I think holding to that old standard of 13 BPS is a little outdated. I mean, no offense but you need to get along with the new standard.

It's not the natural ability. It's the cheaterboards that let people like me shoot 25 BPS. But to stop cheaterboards, you need to remove the incentive to use them. Therefore, restrict the top end to a sane level and it removes the desire for cheaterboards.

Besides, even if the goggles can take higher, the ASTM standard that I'm aware of says goggles can only withstand 13 or so BPS, so by shooting higher ROF paintguns you're going against the ASTM standard. In a court of law, that's golden. That's like INVITING a lawsuit by advertizing that your product is beying the limitations of the ASTM guidelines for the safety gear. It's like putting a seatbelt rated for 30 MPH crashes into a dragster.

-Tyger

[can'tthink of1]

Agreed.

Yeah, I agree, but I think that the talent of being able to shoot fast on your own shouldn't be restricted, I mean, i can't even shoot that fast, but I don't care, there are ppl out there that can, and its their personal talent. Its one of those things that pushes you to improve on something. Sadly people would rather pay the 150 for a ramping chip than put in the work to improve.

[Jackel411]

If this topic was already touched upon feel free to rant at me..

300 FPS may seem exsive at 22 bps... but now... any one that has played knows a bounce hurts more and leaves more of a bruise than a break.. why you may ask?

When the ball hits you and breaks it absorbs some of its impact by breaking , when it bounces YOU absorb its impact energy.

I much rather take a bunch of breaks to the ( insert body part here ) than a bunch of bounces.

Yeah its a bad thing that any kid can go and get a machine gun of a marker for very little money but. Just remember.. this industry makes most of its money on paint , so so long as you are buying more paint the people are happy and at 22 bps you can blow through a case of 2000 quite fast :)

And think about this.. Reloader B made by NPS , NPS also makes very fast timmys , and also owns Diablo hmmmm.. Evolution w/ Z board made by K2 , K2 also makes the Karnivor , K2 also owns Jt that makes high end paint hmmmmm....

[RetroEclipseMan]

Tyger, a bike with a bigger engine and a car with a faster top speed are not representiive of the driver or rider's skill and ability. Thats just an achievement of the pitcrew and engineers.

Why not add ten pound weights to the lighter guys in horse racing or to the arms of the driver who has faster reactions? That'll even ought the field more. Make the guy who has better vision wear a foggy lense. Its his ability that seperates him freom the rest, as does the paintballer

Hell, that team's front man is faster, add 20 pound weights to his pack!!!! That is what capping is in a more obvious way. Your taking their advantage away.

An Muzik, why not? Its all about shooting a lot of paint to be competitive.

"Well, all it takes is one hit to take a player out" some may say.

Well, for me to get that ONE good ball that fits my barrel perfectly and has a great flight, I need to shoot 5. And then, who knows if it won't bounce? And isn't it harder to run through a stream of paint that was sent at 20 or so BPS then it is 3?

Its all about being faster and smaller and lighter and tighter. By shooting more and faster, you are raising the chances that you hit someone. I mean, for JUST 1/13th of a second an elbow or shoe appears, you have several tightly foloowing balls that could hit that elbow. Try doing that when you shoot 13 BPS.

I mean, its the EXACT same thing in fencing. Being able to swing that blade around fast enough, bending it far enough, lunging far enough ALL make the difference. You must take advantage of a chance should it arise, and these skills facilitate this. The same goes for being able to shoot the speed that you can pull, be it 10- or 20+.

Yeah, being able to shoot fast "USED" to be an advantage, with leagues allowing ramping modes I don't see it as an advantage anymore. I know that I can't pull a consistant 15bps but why does that matter if I can just go out and spend $80 on a board that will basically pull over 20 for me. I think what Tyger is trying to say is that if there's a cap in place (which I really hope the PSP goes through with) then it's no longer about having a faster gun but how you use that gun, it will be more up to the player to develop better gun skills, becoming faster and better at tucking than just sitting back and dumping paint.

Look at the NFL and how they no longer allow kickers to "prep" the balls that are used during the game. This wasn't to limit the spectacularly long kicks that ou see, it was to insure that what you see was because of the effort the kicker put into becoming a good kicker, not how well he could doctor a ball to make it easier to kick. Which is the same with players using cheater boards to "level the playing field" Why not just put a cap at 16bps and be done with it.

[MindJob]

I think alot of people are thinking a little bit too far ahead.

The first thing that MUST happen, is for the industry to establish sane guidlines. With that being said, if the industry is not capable, then SOMEONE must.

Secondly, these guidlines must be ENFORCED. This is almost as big of an issue as actually setting the guidelines in the first place.

From listening to most of the players I come across, I think most are anxious to get this rof issue under control, and I aslo think that a set of reasonably sane rules would be welcomed.


The woodsballers and outlaw players for the most part will follow suit. I play lots of outlaw ball, and we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves.


But like said previously, who the heck is going to establish them?

[LudavicoSoldier]

I really hate the mentality that you HAVE to shoot fast to be competitive. Dumping 2 cases a day (or more) is not financially feasable for most players. Heck, not all tournament players can afford the lastest cheater electro. I would say that tourny PB is coming down to the haves and the have nots, and I'm not talking about skill.

[manike]

Besides, even if the goggles can take higher, the ASTM standard that I'm aware of says goggles can only withstand 13 or so BPS, so by shooting higher ROF paintguns you're going against the ASTM standard. In a court of law, that's golden. That's like INVITING a lawsuit by advertizing that your product is beying the limitations of the ASTM guidelines for the safety gear. It's like putting a seatbelt rated for 30 MPH crashes into a dragster.

Where do you get this from? It's JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

I have the ASTM goggle standard in front of me right now and NOWHERE does it say anything about withstanding 13bps.

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

[RRfireblade]

Where do you get this from? It's JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

I have the ASTM goggle standard in front of me right now and NOWHERE does it say anything about withstanding 13bps.

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

Just to add to that...

Of the goggle manufactureres I sell and distribute all but one of them specify the lens to be replaced after 1 direct shot to the lens at or closer than 10'. That's correct...ONE single shot.

The only one that doesn't is a specific model I distribute for tactical training. 'Course that one will take a direct hit from .22 short bullet.

[SlartyBartFast]

While the "industry" has its role to play and shares the blame for some of the current state of paintball, ultimately it's the player in each tournament series that determine the way the series is played.

Until the hormone addled masses turn their focus from how much loot and shiny new things they get for winning a tournament to being genuinely interested in a title for the tiles sake. Little will change.

For the same entry fee, bags of shiny crap get more players to a tournament than a past history of good refereeing and good organisation.

Next time you're at a local tournament, look at the value of the prize package (cash and wholesale price of merchandise). Divide the total by the number of participants. If you don't win YOU are subsidising and encouraging the top teams to play the way they do.

But, every noob interested in tournaments first asks "How do I get sponsored?" and not "How do I improve my game?". If local tournament teams asked themselves the second question, they'd be promoting local area competitions that put the emphasis on skill not on the bounty.

[White_Noise]

Just to add to that...

Of the goggle manufactureres I sell and distribute all but one of them specify the lens to be replaced after 1 direct shot to the lens at or closer than 10'. That's correct...ONE single shot.

The only one that doesn't is a specific model I distribute for tactical training. 'Course that one will take a direct hit from .22 short bullet.

playing in a tourney with an almost brand new lense in my invision, i was shot from about 5 feet away, 3 shots hit my lens from a ramping marker, as well as abour 4 more to the rest of the mask. i come off the field and there is a perfect crack straight through my lense. one more shot would have broken the thermal second lense. i was lucky.

ive had to replace lenses because of being too close and taking a hit directly to the mask with no visible damage. i played with a new lense against some guys with ramping guns and it was about the 3rd time i had played with it. it now has spider cracks from when it got shot numerous times and i have to replace the lense.

im all for the limiting of BPS, as well as modes of fire. i hate ramping, nxl boards, etc. there is no skill in it. i think the ASTM needs to do some tests of paintball equipment and find out exactly what they can handle. my idea would be to limit all paintball markers on any field in any event to a 15bps semiauto only at 300fps or lower. will this every happen? highly doubtful, the company's that control events and tournaments wont allow it cause they wont make as much money from it.

thats my $.02 not that it matters because the majority of the industry doenst care about safety, only $$$.

/endrant

[nerobro]

Yes, a stock gun would make the world much simpler for paintball.

Think about the ease for the player. Every time they went to the field, they would know they could just grab any gun, and play the same as they always have. Versus getting to complain, moan, and otherwise whine about the gun being to blame.

But there is a problem with this. "I" want a gun better than the next guy. And he wants one better than mine. At this point everyone seems to have realized that every gun is about as accurate as the next gun. Just about every gun on the market is acceptabably velocity consistant. And the only "real" difference between each gun is trigger setup, and the rof you can achieve with it. (either through mechanical or software limitations)

I would be a supporter of a 14bps, sealed electronics rule for paintball in general. The game is loosing it's magic due to ropes of paint you can't reasonably run through.

FPS is already an equalizer. There's no reason to change that. And the 300fps rule isn't about goggles. it's about breaking bones.

And goggles are designed to take ONE HIT. But standard practice is to use them till they crack or are a year old.

Another note... ROF used to be a skill. "I" used to be devilishly fast. But with the advent of microswitch triggers, and then software that effectively cheats.... my 13+ bps was no longer extrodinary. Calling ROF a skill nowdays is a lie. I can reach mid twentys with a hot software setup. And I KNOW I can't pull that fast. :-)

[RRfireblade]

Well....

I've been saying this a along time and I'm going to say it again:


5 LB minimum trigger pull weight

And/Or single trigger only electros.


Fixed.....your welcome.

[hitech]

Well....

I've been saying this a along time and I'm going to say it again:


5 LB minimum trigger pull weight

I think one or two pounds is enough. And I agree that it is probably the best start.

[GT]

The rate of paintball related injuries outside of the regulated field environment has seen a steady increase. At some point in time, these increases will lead to the insurance companies lobbying not just for restrictive legislation but rather prohibitive ones. These insurance companies have the ability to shut down paintball as a sport and as an industry.