Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[PBX Ronin 23]

I concur.

But in all likelihood, the top end players won't use additional safety equipment unless it can promote bounce.

[Lohman446]

I concur.

But in all likelihood, the top end players won't use additional safety equipment unless it can promote bounce.

They will.. the bad news is we almost need a league to start fresh - to get out of paintball sponsors (which really can't be easily done, perhaps a new league/TV deal) and to offer a large enough prize package to draw competetive teams. Just make sure they have rules... this is how they are, you obey them to play.

Our current system- rule idea, ask the players, ask the players sponsors, who are also the league sponsors, make sure its ok.. make sure we enforice it this way is ok too... has some flaws in it

[JKR]

Manike alludes to some upcoming safety items which makes me curious. I can tell you this, if regulations are passed forcing players to wear body armor, chin straps, and helmets to play paintball, you can count me out of the game for good. I'll wager that there will be many more that share my opinion. Nope, it will be only renegade or airsoft for me if that happens.

The responsibility rests with players and industry folk in this mess. The manufacturers wouldn't produce this stuff if there wasn't demand.

Hopperball will set us free!

[Tyger]

I told you I'm not in the mood for this.

Are you serious? You live in a free country called America. And you are really asking this?

Do you want to limit people's freedoms and rights?

The right you have to swing your fists ends when you're about to hit my face.

And this has turned into "land of the lawsuit", like it or not EVERYONE is accountable for a stupid act. That includes the person who made the drink somoene else spilled into another person's lap. "Blanket lawsuits" are the norm.

If someone invents a paintball gadget that's manufactured and honed to be razor sharp on the edges, made specifically so you can bunker-slide and cut another player, would that be OK to put on my gun? I mean, it's a free country and it's my right to make my equipment any way I want. No, you wouldn't let me! That just makes sense! You wouldn't let me walk into a paintball field with equipment that's dangerous, would you?

As far as progression goes, whatever. If you want to push boundaries, then don't listen to me. I'm a nobody with a computer who has no game and no skills on the field. (or so I've been told.) And if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. And honestly I hope that I'm wrong. I don't want to see a 15 year old kid taken to a hospital after taking multiple hits to the head or kidneys, then deal with the fallout from angry mothers who take the fight to a senator or other politician. This is a case where I want to be wrong, I don't want to see paintball get screwed because of a moron allowed to use "dangerous equipment", which he screams is in his "rights" to own and use.

But this is different Tyger. In paintball, but emplacing a cap you are limiting people's edge over the competition. We aren't talking about necessary safety featuresd, we have that, and we can use that. We have masks, and BBDs, and neck protectors, and full head gaurds. That can and ought to be enforced. But emplacing a cap is just straight wrong.

Restrictor plate racing, good example of this. How about 250 cc motocross? They have an motor size cap, and yet SOMEONE wins those races with skill and talent. It's only "wrong" becasue nobody has done it for paintball, and the players are resistant to it. And the players are resistant to it because they've been told that more paint is good.

Look, do whatever the heck you want on a paintball field. Just don't be shocked when it bites you in the tail later down the road.

-Tyger
(Who still isn't in the mood for this)

[Muzikman]

I have one question.... Why?

Why do you need a gun that can shoot 30bps?


This is something that no one has ever given me a good answer to. I get the feeling it's because you can. Since the beginning, paintball has tried to figure out ways to get more paint out of the barrel as fast as possible.

At this point the NXL's F/A rule makes the most sense. Do I think it's a good thing, no, it takes away from individual skill.

[can'tthink of1]

People started using ramping chips and other illegal ways of attaining higher bps originally because there was that one guy on the other team who could shoot 19bps legitamately. Now, it has grown to everyone looking to be able to sling 20bps because if they don't they are at a disadvantage. Players don't worry about the safety of other players in a game, they just care about winning. The fact you just put 18balls into somebody in a second just because you had a lapse of though in the adrenalin filled game.

I think ramping/bouce/etc takes out what at one time was an edge that people had worked for to be able to attain high rates of fire w/o cheating. Its taking out a skill that made some players better than others, and its not their equipment that should be focused on, its the player himself that should be responsible for his bps.

I single shot can make someone tense up and do an "ouch" movement, not if 20 balls just hit him, what is that going to do to him physically? No one really knows, but whatever it is, its not good. There is a certian trust amoung players that the next guy when he shoots you out, won't lay 20 balls on you. Now aday's this trust is being broken when players cannot entirely control their marker. You are only in control when there is no ramping/bouncing/auto/etc. You are not adding that extra 6bps, the marker is, and you can't control that. You have to tone it down to where it isn't adding any bps and only then is there complete control. Without complete control, injuries will happen as a result, Not to say they won't anyways, there is just much more of a chance.

I believe company's do care, but its to what extent do they care is what bugs me. SP made it so even the average joe could pic up a nerve and shoot as fast as the hopper would feed. Now, is this caring about safety? Or just worry'in about getting that 12 year old, or whoever desires that speed w/o all the work that some people put in to be able to shoot fast on their own, and the ability to, rip the mask off someones face. I myself have had this happen, and have seen and heard of it happening to others. Its not that my mask wasn't tight or on right, it was fine, just 8 balls directly to my face left me staring at the grill(JT spectra). Needless to say, I got a new mask that I now felt safe in(profiler).

Also, tossing wiping into this whole mess, I know its cheating, but it puts the person who just saw his elim remain in the game cause the reg couldn't find anything, in a position where, he needs to start bonus-balling, and with how quick some people are with snap shooting, he needs to put as many balls on his opponent in the time he gets, to make sure he gets that elim. Thus when he see's that ramping chip, he'll think, "i'm gonna get that to make sure I get that assured elim" He may be able to shoot 17bps, but this chip ramps to 25, almost assuring him another ball to break on his opponent.

I really do think that tournament paintball is destroying itself from the inside. I mean, wiping has be increasing along with illegal markers. If you watched recent tourny coverage, no more do you see players making it to the 50, they make it to the 30 at the most. THen they excange fire for some time untill one team gets the advantage and assured win. Before this time, its just shooting, how much fun is that? WHere are the awazingly fast moves and such what drew me into paintball?

I personally worry about those kids that go shoot 400fps out in the woods, but then again not everyone knows the potential danger at such high fps. They aren't what people worry about the "sport" should be concered with. We need to be worried about what we play. THough, I inform every noob to my best extent to make sure he has a safe, and pleasurable time paintballing. But they shouldn't be the speedball going player's main concern.

[ubooze]

Tyger, a bike with a bigger engine and a car with a faster top speed are not representiive of the driver or rider's skill and ability. Thats just an achievement of the pitcrew and engineers.

Why not add ten pound weights to the lighter guys in horse racing or to the arms of the driver who has faster reactions? That'll even ought the field more. Make the guy who has better vision wear a foggy lense. Its his ability that seperates him freom the rest, as does the paintballer

Hell, that team's front man is faster, add 20 pound weights to his pack!!!! That is what capping is in a more obvious way. Your taking their advantage away.

An Muzik, why not? Its all about shooting a lot of paint to be competitive.

"Well, all it takes is one hit to take a player out" some may say.

Well, for me to get that ONE good ball that fits my barrel perfectly and has a great flight, I need to shoot 5. And then, who knows if it won't bounce? And isn't it harder to run through a stream of paint that was sent at 20 or so BPS then it is 3?

Its all about being faster and smaller and lighter and tighter. By shooting more and faster, you are raising the chances that you hit someone. I mean, for JUST 1/13th of a second an elbow or shoe appears, you have several tightly foloowing balls that could hit that elbow. Try doing that when you shoot 13 BPS.

I mean, its the EXACT same thing in fencing. Being able to swing that blade around fast enough, bending it far enough, lunging far enough ALL make the difference. You must take advantage of a chance should it arise, and these skills facilitate this. The same goes for being able to shoot the speed that you can pull, be it 10- or 20+.

[JKR]

After posting, I thought about the prospects of body armor a little more. I feel certain that something like this will ultimately cause more safety problems than it solves. Undoubtedly, if full body armor is pitched to insurance companies as the savior of the sport, it will become a reality. Seems logical in their eyes as well as the industry pukes that are pitching it and have a vested interest.

OK, so now body armor becomes a reality. What happens at the recreational level? More players who don't have armor or don't want to sweat in the stuff start playing renegade. Before long, the industry pukes rationalize that the impact injury problem is solved and increased paintball weight or increased velocity would certainly add to the bottom line. After all, we are all just looking for a bit of and advantage over the other guy right? Nothing wrong with that, right? Do you see where I am heading here?

Trickle-down takes hold and Tommy newbie starts dishing it out to his buddies behind his house. Oh yeah, he also has the latest and greatest Uber-Max 2010 that shoots 6 gram 'balls at 350 fps. Cool!

Padding ourselves in "Red Man" suits is not the answer, folks. Most injuries now are caused by kids not properly outfitted and playing renegade. Continuing to offer 'guns that can seriously injure people and thinking that more safety gear that they won't buy will fix the problem is irresponsible behavior in my eyes. Even if my doom and gloom scenario of increased velocity and paintball weight is false, the current situation is a disaster waiting to happen.

[CaliMagFan]

Tyger, was that a slight at the legal system? Or was that you endorsing the law suit process. Because if you're "up" on how it all works, you'd know that it's people like Manike that must make sure they are following a safe route in business or they will me subject to law suits. I hear a lot of bull about the US, and California being "law suit happy." Those people dont realize that the law suit is what the check and balance process is in the private/corporate sector.

So, we're faced with what I think is really THE QUESTION. "At what point do you pass up some of your individual freedoms, for the safety and order of the many?"

There is Freedom vs Equality

And there is Freedom vs Order

We're dealing with the latter in this thread. So, both of you, all of you must realize you're all arguing from the same point of view. It's the point of view of a paintballer. Now there are some people that say, "no, you can't tell me how to play my game, I demand my freedom." Then there are others (this is you tyger) that demand that people succumb to the will of the many or the will of order. What I would suggest is to not think that you're fighting one idea vs another, but think instead that you are trying to find the middle ground of a single ideology.

Let's figure this out, but let's be civil about it.

-kyro

[ubooze]

Padding ourselves in "Red Man" suits is not the answer, folks. Most injuries now are caused by kids not properly outfitted and playing renegade. Continuing to offer 'guns that can seriously injure people and thinking that more safety gear that they won't buy will fix the problem is irresponsible behavior in my eyes. Even if my doom and gloom scenario of increased velocity and paintball weight is false, the current situation is a disaster waiting to happen.

Nice and dandy, my friend, but the fact that people are being harmed ont he tourney scene can be adressed. Hell, you don't need to wear full body armor, just a torso protector, a head gaurd of some sort (i am thinking hundredth monkey caps), and neck protector will cut it. And a cup is advisable.

That way you are really limiting the chances of injury in the tourney scene. I mean, you may think that stuff is uncomfortable, but so is a cheapy pack from walmart. Thats why Redz and NXe redisgned packs to be nicer, and the same would go for safety gear if the market was ordered to wear such gear.

You can't do anything about the woodsball kids. They are beyond the jurisdiction of the leagues and industry. They are in their own world. And besides, just cause they can't buy it doesn't mean they can't rent it. I know of several fields around here that are lax about board settings and don't have any caps.

I still think that FPS and proper gear that currently have is a safe solution. More likely or not the situations that players were knocked-out were hit with high FPS. SO instead of 300 go for the 280 FPS mark, and hold to it! And if you play, you should probably be smart enough to wear some sort of hat. Thats your mistake not to chose a more suitable piece of clothing.

If you make sure you have a high quality mask and wear it properly, and that other players and the field enforce the FPS limit, this oughten be a problem at ALL.

[Tyger]

Tyger, a bike with a bigger engine and a car with a faster top speed are not representiive of the driver or rider's skill and ability. Thats just an achievement of the pitcrew and engineers.

Why not add ten pound weights to the lighter guys in horse racing or to the arms of the driver who has faster reactions? That'll even ought the field more. Make the guy who has better vision wear a foggy lense. Its his ability that seperates him freom the rest, as does the paintballer

No, you miss the point.

If you standardise the equipment, then the talent will show. Right now everyone tries to "even the play field" by raising the BPS they can shoot. Go the other route. If everyone has the same "base" limit of 11-15 BPS, then you can work within that. EVERYONE start at teh same speed, now it's what you do with it.

It's not limiting "some", it's limiting "ALL". a 125 CC motorcycle race means ALL RIDERS start on a 125 CC bike. It's what the riders do with the bike that determines who wins or loses. You limit how much work that technology can do, you see what the ATHLETES can do with it. Right now in paintball the technology to skill level is more than a little unbalanced. Limit the tech, watch what the athletes can do.

-Tyger

[can'tthink of1]

I know you can limit them by bps, but what puts them all on the same playing ground is the fact their markers all fire as fast as they can legitamately fire, and fire ~300fps. I hate trying to compare paintball to other sports, cause although its using a precendent, paintball is in a league of its own. I think how they handle their maker involves how fast they can pull the trigger.

[ubooze]

But by making all front players run the same speed, their ability to play tightly and snap shoot and what not are exposed, no?

I mean, I see where your coming from, but the matter of fact is that shooting fast is STILL a skill. One drivers ability to go through the gears at the right time and quickly enough gives him an edge and that skill.

One players ability to pull 20 BPS legally is and advanatge over the guy shooting 16 BPS towards him. I bet there are some teams that are stuck with using mech guns or somethng like that, what about them? It woudl only be fair to let them have some sort of reactive trigger to hit that 15 BPS cap.

I mean, no offense Tyger, your a great guy and all, but I think holding to that old standard of 13 BPS is a little outdated. I mean, no offense but you need to get along with the new standard.

As shooting 4 BPS with an autotrigger may have been a standard, then 13 BPS, and now the 18 and over. It still ALL depends ont he players ability to shoot that 18 BPS. You can make a unlimited limit of ROF< but some guy is still gunna need to wave those fingers while snapshooting, avoiding balls, and hiding behind a big balloon.

to you Tyger, no hard feelings.

[Tyger]

Tyger, was that a slight at the legal system? Or was that you endorsing the law suit process.
...
Now there are some people that say, "no, you can't tell me how to play my game, I demand my freedom." Then there are others (this is you tyger) that demand that people succumb to the will of the many or the will of order. What I would suggest is to not think that you're fighting one idea vs another, but think instead that you are trying to find the middle ground of a single ideology.

#1 ) I'm just stating the way lawsuits work. If I'm at, say, a county fair and some employee throws a sizzling hot steak at my face and scalds me. The lawsuit would include the employee, the employer, the chain that makes the steaks, the fairgrounds, the people who ran the event and so on. It's not whatI agree with, but the concept is that you blanket sue everyone, and see what sticks. And a good lawyer can make a LOT stick.

#2 ) Look, I'm talking about a workable solution. It's worked in dozens of other technology based sports, it doesn't work in paintball because the players also run the industry who run the tournaments stand to lose financially if there's caps and limitations on the technology. It's a solution that, if implemented, WILL work. You go over the limit, you're out. As has been said before, NASCAR vehicles are inspected to an inch of their sheetmetal to make sure they're in the paramaters of what's allowed. I fail to see a difference between doing that and restricting technology in paintball.

-Tyger

[can'tthink of1]

You can restrict the technology sure, but how fast a player can legitamately shoot is his own doing cause 99% of high end electro's can shoot faster than anyone can pull w/o ramp/bounce/etc.