Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[Southpaw]

Simon, it's not the new lenses that I'm concerned with but rather the ones that have been structurally compromised and yet the owner of the mask still won't change it.

Decrease in velocity need not be the only possible solution to the problem. Possible ideas, I'm hoping, will arise from this discussion.

[manike]

Simon, it's not the new lenses that I'm concerned with but rather the ones that have been structurally compromised and yet the owner of the mask still won't change it.

All manufacturers clearly state the lenses should be changed once a year and after any close range impact.

Simple answer, we date stamp when lenses were made (many already are), and the fields check them when players turn up to see that they are in date, just like with tanks.

Also you check for any visible defects and refuse to let anyone play without replacing their lenses. You should probably do that anyway.

[firebanex]

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

By far the best idea yet

[Lee]

i think the key issue ronin raised is the off field injuries.
when too many little johhnys and billies get hurt, things may hit the fan. kids messing around in thier back yards with equipment beyond thier experience or capabilities as well as super store customers shooting at people and property is where the problem will surface.
competition and regular rec players are the ones that are experienced enough to be safe and less likely to do something risky while amongst the general public, though i think they are increasingly the minority of the sport, and, if i'm not mistaken, regular tournament players are a small fraction of the over all population of paintball players.

consider the steady growth, "main streaming" and increased accessability of markers and paint combined with the age groups that much marketing is targeted at.

though i'm not in the know about these things, i think it can be safely assumed that at least the larger events and thier venues have adequate insurance by a provider that is aware of the risks/percentages of having to make a payout. and also, i would think that playing on a legitament insured field or venue, there is a personal assumption of risk to an extent.
i do feel that a better referee corps is needed to enforce rules and ensure safety. ref training needs to cover what to look for in a safe or unsafe mask lens or how to spot an illegal or unsafe marker. these things come with experience and not every ref gets that experience. and actually, most the emphasis is placed on spotting markers, not checking lenses for damage or masks for proper fit.

peoples actions on the street and in the home is what will create the most worry for insurers and if it begins to cost them, it may begin to cost us.

[PBX Ronin 23]

No disrespect intended but you guys are missing the point. Granted, we can put disclaimers on products and the responsible fields will diligently replace their lenses on a prescribed interval. But what happens to the knucklehead who doesn't pay attention to the warning labels and the renegade ballers who play in unregulated fields.

The point is if an incident occurs, it hampers ALL of us. Negative publicity is something that nobody wants, lest you're Denis Rodman and negative publicity is still publicity.

The fact of the matter is most of the injuries occur outside the realm of what we would consider "responsible" paintball. It's not Paintball insurance companies that will be complaining. It will be homeowners insurance companies that will since the economic burden will be carried by them.

If the outside world can see us policing ourselves and proactively taking measures to ensure the safety of the participants in the sport, then they may likely take a more positive position of us. Hence, worse case scenario - restrictive legislation......not prohibitive legislation.

[Lohman446]

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

There was a push to the limits of the rules, perhaps even cheating before electros. Ever seen a mag with multiple lines on the reg and body where they line up, those lines that look like scratches are not there for no reason.

What about the early retro valves that Jax Warriors were using without known correct chrono procedures (not that it makes a big difference) and with noone really looking for sweetspotting.

What about the beaver tail (lack thereof) trick for 'cockers.

Anyone recall shaking a CO2 container to get fluid to the liquid

[manike]

No disrespect intended but you guys are missing the point. Granted, we can put disclaimers on products and the responsible fields will diligently replace their lenses on a prescribed interval. But what happens to the knucklehead who doesn't pay attention to the warning labels and the renegade ballers who play in unregulated fields.

The point is if an incident occurs, it hampers ALL of us. Negative publicity is something that nobody wants, lest you're Denis Rodman and negative publicity is still publicity.

The fact of the matter is most of the injuries occur outside the realm of what we would consider "responsible" paintball. It's not Paintball insurance companies that will be complaining. It will be homeowners insurance companies that will since the economic burden will be carried by them.

If the outside world can see us policing ourselves and proactively taking measures to ensure the safety of the participants in the sport, then they may likely take a more positive position of us. Hence, worse case scenario - restrictive legislation......not prohibitive legislation.

We ARE policing ourselves. We ARE making safety equipment that can withstand the game. We ARE responsibly telling people how to use their equipment.

We CAN'T sell common sense, and we CAN'T stop people being stupid. Darwin will win out...

If you made everything safe enough for the lowest common denominator (idiot) then you wouldn't be able to do anything in life or sell any product.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Touche, Manike, touche!!! LOL

[SlartyBartFast]

EFFECTIVELY enforce the fps limit.
EFFECTIVELY enforce engagement and overshooting rules.

EFFECTIVELY = adequate officiating and penalties that matter.

Then there'd be no problem.

As for idiots hurting themselves outside of organised fields and games, well tough. But, the industry does have to mount an effective PR image to make sure that the association of PB with hooligan's is as unlikely as BAseball getting a bad name because some punk beats an old lady with a bat or golf getting a bad name because Jack Nickleson (the actor) beats a car with his clubs in a fit of road rage.

[Off Center]

If you decrease velocity, you'll get fewer breaks, which will require more shots to accomplish a single elimination. I would think that the requirement for more shots would correlate with more injuries.

[JKR]

Problem is, that won't happen. Then the paint companies will not make as much money. If you allow unlimited paint but slow down the guns, the back players will still dump a ton of paint.

I address the issue of profits for the paint manufacturers and field owners also. Please read the three posts following this one:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1105881334

[LudavicoSoldier]

EFFECTIVELY enforce the fps limit.
EFFECTIVELY enforce engagement and overshooting rules.

EFFECTIVELY = adequate officiating and penalties that matter.

Then there'd be no problem.

As for idiots hurting themselves outside of organised fields and games, well tough. But, the industry does have to mount an effective PR image to make sure that the association of PB with hooligan's is as unlikely as BAseball getting a bad name because some punk beats an old lady with a bat or golf getting a bad name because Jack Nickleson (the actor) beats a car with his clubs in a fit of road rage.

Mmmm...I like this one! Saying that it is unlikely for the Industry to police itself is in fact (IMHO) admitting the root of the problem. People who make the rules should not be allowed to profit from the rules, or lack thereof.

[Tyger]

Nobody cares.

I've been saying for years that paintball is starting to get too dangerous, and nobody cares. "Well nobody's been hurt yet! We can go another 10 BPS." It won't matter if you lower the FPS, you've still got multiple projectiles in the air at any time, and the "Barrel sock" system is still dependant on the end user's judgement on when to throw it away becasue the ends are frayed out. (Assuming that the barrel sock will STOP a runaway trigger at 20 BPS for 5 seconds...)

The players don't care, because faster guns = better players and they all want to be better NOW.

The industry doesn't care, because they make money when playrs buy faster guns and more paint.

The fields don't care, because they make more money when people buy 2 cases a day instead of 1000 balls.

Nobody in the industry will care until something happens. Like some guy gets torched point blank and has permanent nerve damage from multiple impacts and sues the industry for willingly creating the circumstances to allow that to happen. Or even more fun, some kid is bunkered from a ramping gun, 15+ shots in the neck or kidneys in less than a second. Then we'll all act surprised, like we didn't see anything like this coming.

As long as the money machine is rolling, nobody will care. It doesn't matter that we won't see serious sponsorship from out-of-industry companies until we can show that we've matured enough to set restrictions on equipment. A few companies are rolling in the money so they keep it going. Believe me, if NASCAR drivers could they'd rip out restrictor plates and race, who cares if someone dies we're racing! Athletes will go as far as the rules allow, and then some. It's up to the "powers that be" to set the rules so they can perform within safe parameters.

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

-Tyger

[PBX Ronin 23]

If you decrease velocity, you'll get fewer breaks, which will require more shots to accomplish a single elimination. I would think that the requirement for more shots would correlate with more injuries.

Your reason for the decrease in velocity will lead to higher profits.......who wouldn't like that.

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

-Tyger

Tru that!

[teufelhunden]

EFFECTIVELY enforce the fps limit.
EFFECTIVELY enforce engagement and overshooting rules.

EFFECTIVELY = adequate officiating and penalties that matter.

Then there'd be no problem.

As for idiots hurting themselves outside of organised fields and games, well tough. But, the industry does have to mount an effective PR image to make sure that the association of PB with hooligan's is as unlikely as BAseball getting a bad name because some punk beats an old lady with a bat or golf getting a bad name because Jack Nickleson (the actor) beats a car with his clubs in a fit of road rage.

The problem does not lie within established fields and tournaments. People aren't getting hurt there at an alarming rate. People get hurt, of course, but people get hurt walking down the street. The issue is with the outlaw ballers who shoot at 375 because "300 doesnt give us enough range" and don't wear masks "cuz masks are for pussies"...