Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[RRfireblade]

Not going to read the whole thing, just a quick response to the basic overview.

Vast malority of Paintball injuries happen "in the woods'. Make the FPS 100 and it will have zero effect on those guys.Cap the ROF at 10bps...will have zero effect on those guys.You can't legislate stupidity. Oh you can try...but it doesn't work.

Drunk drivers still drive drunk,people still don't use seat belts,smoke cigarrettes,eat unproportional amounts of fat and so on. In fact as the population eveolves, IMO, it only gets worse.

And...

never ever going to see a 'universal' board or programming software agreed apon by the 'industry' in our 'effective' lifetime if ever at all.

[moed59]

what happen to one shot one kill/player out

now if you get shot by some idiot shooting 26 bps you might be lucky to only get hit 7 times.Hey thats great for tournys because i dont play in them and if thats what they want fine. I played at a local feild for the first time in a while and was amazed by the rate of fire these guys where hitting, i was thinking to myself how can you shoot that fast with one finger well you cant unless you feather it or walk it with 2 or 3 fingers. Then i was looking deeper and i saw a guy with an angel move his fingers and then he stoped moving his fingers and the gun was still shooting whats up with that. Im sure ther are alot of new cheat boards ive been reading here and there i dont know much about it yet, but i think there should be a cap why do you really need to shoot 20 bps why dont you just play full automode whats the point of having a semi? I can care less about be shot by a paintball its just the 8 others that hit me right after that piss me off. And as far as safty(one guy beating another guy badly because he got over shot) there would be less fights from walk on amatuers and team pros playing against each other. Keep that in the tourny and not in the walk on games. I spar and fight with some of K1 kickboxing greats like MIGHTYMO and i would never feel happy or proud that i just beat down some amatuer nobody. You get that with some of these tourny players playing against walk ons. my 2cents

[PBX Ronin 23]

I know if I owned a company that made pb markers I wouldn't submit to buying a "standard board", especially if it's one of the big PB giants that makes it. It amounts to a tax on paintball markers payable to whoever makes the board, and I wouldn't want to deal with that in addition to all the patent issues being dealt with in the industry...........

It's a nice idea, don't get me wrong, but it'll never take off unless there's an agency with the power and organization to enforce that sort of move, and enforce it to every manufacturer and every field and every player that goes out in the woods to shoot up their friends.

Can the ASTM Sub-committee for paintball, play a role in safeguarding the future of the sport? They know what needs to get done. The problem that exists is that they have neither the muscle nor the political consensus to enact the corrective measure that they know they need to enact.

Will the manufacturers see that it is in their own long-term best interest to act collectively in conjunction with the ASTM sub-committee and find a solution? Can they subvert their egos and prevent a potential catastrophe from happening? My guess, probably not. Their drive to compete in a market place predicated on a self-perpetuating arms race won't allow them to.

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem.

What you have just said is but one part of the overall dilema.

But as for the "Standard Board", let the players do what they want, let the manufacturers or aftermarket people assume the liability by being the sellers of that type of 'illegal' board and in essence absolve the industry as a whole. But come major tourney time, show the outside world that we are attempting to insitute regulations that enhances safety.

[manike]

Nothing personal but I SOOOOOO disagree.

Nobody cares.

Absolute RUBBISH.

I've been saying for years that paintball is starting to get too dangerous, and nobody cares.

People care about safety, but few people listen to you because you have no basis of facts to back up your opinion. Yes there has been more injuries in "paintball" but there are more people playing. Obviously more people playing means more injuries even if the percentages stay the same.

I believe the 'injuries' per participant hasn't changed, in fact IIRC it's gone down.

Your statement is like saying "cars are more dangerous now than they were 50 years ago"

Of course they are, in some respects, they are faster and there are more of them on the road. But in accidents the occupants or victims are less likely to be hurt.

It won't matter if you lower the FPS, you've still got multiple projectiles in the air at any time,

I'd like to see ANY proof you have of that being less safe. Any facts would be nice. Your opinion doesn't count on it being an issue unless you have facts to back it up.

"Barrel sock" system is still dependant on the end user's judgement on when to throw it away becasue the ends are frayed out. (Assuming that the barrel sock will STOP a runaway trigger at 20 BPS for 5 seconds...)

There are processes in place to make BBD's safer. BBD's have been continually developed and implemented through our sports history to keep up with the guns. It's still happening.

The industry doesn't care, because they make money when playrs buy faster guns and more paint.

If you REALLY think those of us in the industry don't care about safety then I'm stunned. The safety of our sport is paramount to maintaining the industry. I would estimate at least 60% of my time last year was directly dedicated to improving the safety of products and the industry. I am concerned about safety because it protects this industry, the company I work for, my job, and ultimately my lifestyle. I'm also a player. It concerns me on all levels on all fronts.

YOU just don't see it because not everyone believes your opinion of the 'sky falling in'.

Nobody in the industry will care until something happens.

That's such rubbish it's laughable. The pre-emptive measures we take to make things safer is huge. Again you just don't see it, partly because you don't know about it, and partly because you don't care to look for it.

Like some guy gets torched point blank and has permanent nerve damage from multiple impacts and sues the industry for willingly creating the circumstances to allow that to happen. Or even more fun, some kid is bunkered from a ramping gun, 15+ shots in the neck or kidneys in less than a second. Then we'll all act surprised, like we didn't see anything like this coming.

Got ANY proof that multiple impacts are less safe than single? Who's to say even when multiple impacts occur, that it wasn't just one of them hitting the right spot that caused a problem? Are you a doctor? have you studied impacts? Nope you are just a scaremongerer.

As long as the money machine is rolling, nobody will care.

Again this is ABSOLUTE rubbish... if only you knew how many gun designs I've been banned from making because they were 'too dangerous' in a fall. You just want to have this nasty opinion of the industry and your blinded to the truth.

(p.s. The Empire, Russian Legion, and Lasoya guns ALL had changes to the body style because of safety concerns!) It cost more money and time to make the changes, but it happened because we look at every product from a safety point of view.

We discuss safety daily at work.

It's up to the "powers that be" to set the rules so they can perform within safe parameters.

And we do and we make sure we stay within them. The only issue I see is that we differ on what we think is safe. I know I test my hypotheses' and products and follow ASTM and toy regulations in product design. How do you come up with your opinion?

Just because "nothing has happened yet" does not mean it never will.

The only thing I agree with. We can't stop all freak accidents, and you can never think of all possible issues or cover all possible bases.

But we ARE trying and WE DO CARE.

[manike]

Not going to read the whole thing, just a quick response to the basic overview.

Vast malority of Paintball injuries happen "in the woods'. Make the FPS 100 and it will have zero effect on those guys.Cap the ROF at 10bps...will have zero effect on those guys.You can't legislate stupidity. Oh you can try...but it doesn't work.

Drunk drivers still drive drunk,people still don't use seat belts,smoke cigarrettes,eat unproportional amounts of fat and so on. In fact as the population eveolves, IMO, it only gets worse.

And...

never ever going to see a 'universal' board or programming software agreed apon by the 'industry' in our 'effective' lifetime if ever at all.

I agree with him!

[PBX Ronin 23]

Good thought provoking thread......this is what AO should be about!!!. Keep 'em coming boys!

Simon, you da man...lol.

[Tyger]

Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

This way, everyone is on equal ground.

OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

just off the top of my head, I can see more than a few cheats. Bring my own laptop and re-flash the board. Put in a dummy board that gets flashed while the real one stays illegal. Or just have two guns.

Until we have a "tournament gun" spec sheet that says "all paintguns must adhere to the following criteria, any other modifications is immediate ejection from the event with no refund" there's no point in even talking about gun cheats.

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair!

-Tyger

[PBX Ronin 23]

So what now? In a comment I made earlier in connection with a rant on ROF, I specifically laid out that the industry and the sport have too many divergent interests and no universally accepted governing body to mandate the necessary corrective measures. As an example of this, take a look at the NPPL and who sits on the Rules Committee. I believe Mr. Ged Green, owner of WDP, is a member of that committee. If the NPPL is to be looked upon by us as one of the guiding forces in the industry when it comes to generally accepted rules, can they under the leadership of Chuck Hendsch enact rules that may be perceived as contrary to WDP's best interest? Can these two gentlemen separate the political issues that govern their participation in the sport and just focus in on doing what's in the best interest of all?

Why, YES! The industry / tournament series needs to grow a pair!

It isn't growing a "pair" or the lack of publicly stated conviction to do what's best for the sport. It's the willingness to separate one's personal interest for the betterment of the whole. Such self-sacrificing ways isn't all too common in most parts of our soceity. Let alone in paintball.

[gc82000]

Problem Solved!

but how would you limit the velocity on this???
:P

[Lohman446]

We have used the NASCAR analogy more than once, so lets go with that.

In the late 60s and early 70s stock car racing was just that - as long as the factory produced it you bolted on some safety equipment and played. Then the factories started playing... there were literally Corvettes produced and sold to the public that the brakes would not work until warmed up. Think of all the Hemi cars shot out by Chrysler that were race cars.. designed as such, built as such, and just enough produced to qualify as production cars The factories promoted NASCAR, the factories produced to NASCAR, NASCAR was afraid to stand up to teh factories and things were getting out of control.

It is where I see paintball as now. Until a league can stand on its own - with support from outside the paintball world and the ability to tell the manufacturers that get out of hand to "stick it" we are going to be in for this ride. Until the leagues check it or a court checks it.

Look at NASCAR now. Your car is teched before the race, and if you win it is taken directly to the shop for more teching. Your going to have to do this with markers... you win the tournament your markers are subject to lengthy inspection for cheats... because we know that cheats are out there.

The problem is, the leagues are still dependent on those they set the rules for. This needs to be overcome somehow. Note that i have no idea how at this point, but we are discussing what we need to aim for now, not the individual steps. It can be done.

The problem is, everyone expects every tournament to be the NASCAR of PB. Think boys, if I go to the local circle track.. those rules are mearly suggestions, they don't have the ability to tech check things like NASCAR does. This is the other thing PB has to get over. We need a league for smaller ones to aspire too... but dont expect everything from everyone.

[hitech]

We have used the NASCAR analogy more than once, so lets go with that...

To that entire post, all I have to say is...

[PBX Ronin 23]

but how would you limit the velocity on this???
:P

Although I do appreciate the humor, this thread is intended to be a thought provoking one. The initial post has been made and this one lack both originality and intellect that this thread should be about. Perhaps PBN would be a more appropriate forum for you to visit.

Good luck and best regards.

BTW Lohman, good anology. I'm not up to speed on NASCAR history but if that is indeed the case, then I do see the parallel issues.

[Tyger]

I am not in the mood for this.

Absolute RUBBISH.
...
I'd like to see ANY proof you have of that being less safe. Any facts would be nice. Your opinion doesn't count on it being an issue unless you have facts to back it up.

There are processes in place to make BBD's safer. BBD's have been continually developed and implemented through our sports history to keep up with the guns. It's still happening.

If you REALLY think those of us in the industry don't care about safety then I'm stunned.
...
YOU just don't see it because not everyone believes your opinion of the 'sky falling in'.
...
Got ANY proof that multiple impacts are less safe than single? Who's to say even when multiple impacts occur, that it wasn't just one of them hitting the right spot that caused a problem? Are you a doctor? have you studied impacts? Nope you are just a scaremongerer.
...
But we ARE trying and WE DO CARE.

Manike, right now I'm really not in the mood for an internet fight. But, since you seem want one, I'll oblige.

No, I honeslty do not believe that most (perhaps I should emphasise that word from now on) companies rally give a rat's tail about my safety on a field of play. I know for a fact most referees do not, I can tell you most fields don't, I can tell you through implication that most companies seem to not care either. If somoene pays the money, they can get a device that they might or might not be able to control.

It's been my expirence in the last 4-5 years that I've seen more people inured in paintball than before. Both refs and players dropped to the ground unconcious DIRECTLY because of multiple impacts. Skyball last year, for example, a ref was KO'd by a player near the end of the event. Up to that time I'd never seen with my own eyes somoene dropped unconcious from paintball strikes. It's been repeated in the last few years, and there's at least one pro player who brags that he loves to knock people unconcious by overshooting to the head (It was in a PGI interview).

Alternatively, can you show me evidence and proof that it's perfectly OK to take 15 BPS to the back of the head, kidneys, and so on? No, nobodys DONE that kind of research. And I certainly do not have the money to sink into it, nor am I interested in causing permanent damage to my own nerves for research. Am I a "Scaremonger"? No, I'm a realist. The law of probability dictates that if something is POSSIBLE, then it can happen.

The BBD issue was proven to me with the CCP lawsuit, which came down to negligence. Somoene didn't replace a BBD that ultimately failed. That's human error, a lack of someone taking the time to give a flying ...act. So it's more than probable that it can not only happen again, but it will. MY safety at a field is dictated NOT by my actions, but by the actions of other people. I do not want to lose an eye becasue somoene was too cheap to spend $5 on a new BBD, and that's out of my realm of control.

By the same token, MY SAFETY on a paintball field falls into the hands of my opponents. I do not know if a player is running a ramping board, or a full auto board, or in fact if they have a board that creates any number of cheats. If one of them has a runaway board and they "accidentally" shoot 20 balls per second and causes nerve damage, will they say "Oh, oops, sorry dude" and all is better? And why did they buy that board? The industry crammed BPS=BETTER down their throats through advertizing and tournament structures. Then the players spend the $150+ on the new board and software which makes someone money. And that had to come from somewhere. SOMEONE in the industry sat down and said "Oh! you know, they want faster shooting paintguns! It might be a little unsafe, but who cares! We can sell a few thousand before the legal ramifications hit." Seen it before, it'll happen again. I may be jaded, but I'm never dissapointed by what happens.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few companies who actually care for the people who play, and not just look at the sport as a cash cow. And is the sky falling in? I didn't say that. I just said that it's plausable that I can be injured becasue of a ramping board, because nobody freakin' cares. Not the players, the fields, the rules, nor the companies. Give the players what they want, to hell with the reprecussions. And if you and your company does care, then prove it to me. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. I'm a hard sell, but I'm open to listen.

-Tyger (I am so not in the mood for this right now)

[ubooze]

But by having this universal board or software, you also come back to the problem. Tweaking your equipement and equiping yourself with parts that give you an edge are a major part of the game.

Thats why I think capped boards in tourneys is really a shame. Some people are naturally able to shoot faster than others. Some pople can adjust their gear to shoot extermely fast. By putting a cap on the speed, you are hindering their talent, their "edge" if you will.

ANY solution for a universal board or program would negate this advantage or expose it to more risk.

A] Like Tyger said, there is always a chance someone uses a dummy board or another gun.
B] Boards could be switched out between the flashing/handing out of boards and the game.

How bout setting up a coral? Hand out that board, watch as they program it or flash it so that the various parameters are let alone, and all other "extras" are erased. Then take the gun and quarentine the gun until game-time, and then regather them afterwards. But then again, no one would agree to give their guns into some else's care. CHnaces are it could be sabatoged or tampered with.

So the only option would be to train refs, implement robots, and penalize players heavily. I say if your caught cheating, then your out for tourney. Set down the law and live up to it.

Other then that, I can't figure out of another solution.

Edit: How about tamper proof boards that are approved by the league? I can't think of a way to do it right now, but I'll try.

Edit 2: Universal board idea. The league has several serialized boards, which are passed out randomly to players at the beginning of the event/day/game. Use some other method of identifiaction as well, like those RFID(information imbedded in the label) labels as well to check authenticity. Then, apply this to a aluminum or steel container that holds the board( I am thinking morlock here for its small size) and red loc-tite the end-cap so noone will be able to change it very easily at the tourney. The player can then adjust the guns using the trigger and LED as he likes. Before each game they are asked to show their authentic board, and get the label scanned with the handheld RFID/barcode scanner. At the end of the last game, the boards are collected before they leave the field. At this point the boards are taken in, hooked up to an analyzer, and double check for any foreign code that may have been maliciously inserted. And since the boards are assigned to one player for the entire tourney/day, they can be punished repectively.

It'll be tooo expensive that way tooo, so I'm stumped.

[Jimbud]

The only way to make any meaningful changes in this sport is to get the major Tournament series to change and enforce their rules.

like it or not tourney play drives the direction of paintball.

Insane rof, ramping, cheater boards, they have all trickled down to local tourneys and rec ball due to their use in the major tourney series.

If the major tourneys ALL ENFORCED a bps cap of say 12 bps and mandated that all markers were ASTM complaint, most if not all electro markers would come from the factory with bps limited, ASTM complaint boards.

And it would become the defacto standard for rec ball.

And since factory markers would be compliant. By default the "Walmart Warriors" would have safer markers too.

Would some people still cheat? Of course they would! But they would be a tiny minority

A player that showed up to play rec ball with a ramping cheater gun would be as unwelcome as the player that try's to shoot 330 fps.

The best example I can come up with of this in action is Bass Fishing.

Back when Tournament Bass fishing first started the common practice was to keep and kill all the fish caught.

They pretty quickly realized that the were quite literally killing their sport. So they changed their rules to live weigh ins and popularized catch and release bass fishing.
This then trickled down to the local level.

Now even recreational Bass fisherman ALMOST NEVER keep fish!


Until the powers that be in the NPPL / NXL ect. realize that they have the future of this sport in their hands. And decide to put the good of the sport above their personal gain nothing will change. And in fact things will continue to spiral out of control. Until Paintball finally collapses under the weight of it own arrogance.