Thoughts on ION, SP, Hype.. other makers..

[JimmyBeam]

What is the advantage of the QEVs btw... just curious if I should bother putting them on mine. My general theory is to just keep it stock and use it as a backup, but i might toy with it some

it allows the used gas that is putting pressure on the bolt to exit the marker quicker and easier. no backpressure means the dwell or time the bolt is held open can be reduced to almost nothin. increasing effeciency and speed.

once installing it you can turn your dwell down to ~7

[FallNAngel]

Yes, it's a blow forward. However, it's much more like a matrix than a 'Mag.

Personally, I'm well aware of how Ion's work... they're not complicated markers. However, they *ARE* more like mags than matrices... I still don't see how anyone can think otherwise.

The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber.[/b]

Yes, but that's *EXACTLY* what makes a blow forward different than a spool valve. I'm not arguing that they don't function similiarly... I'm saying the small differences are what make the Ion less like a Matrix and more like a Mag.

The Ion dosen't have a separate on/off (while the Ion's bolt dosen't totally cut off the flow, the wide tail does reduce the flow to almost nothing), it dosen't have a sear, and it dosen't have a spring. In fact, the only springs in the entire gun are one in the 'reg and one inside the microswitch. There is a reason Dye is sueing SP over this design.

OK...
A) Just because the Ion doesn't have an on/off doesn't mean it's not a blow forward or not a mag... it just means it won't have great efficiency.
B) The fact that the mag has a sear and spring doesn't make it any less of a blow forward, it just means it's not a full electopneumatic blow forward
C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

[nicad]

C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

Because its not the same design. Dye owns the design that has a bolt cutting off its own input air (spool bolt). The freestyle does not do this.

Even the Freestyle HE kits.. Whoever designed the HE kit (Greg Schutte??) was very sneaky- they used the FLOW of air to close off the input air supply.. not the movement of the bolt. There is a difference.
It is the same concept that Greg Duncan (Aardvark) came up with (slam bolt) when DYE issued all the aftermarket Matrix bolt makers a Cease and Desist.

interesting, twisted stuff.. :)
out!

[Twiek]

The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber.

Yes, but that's *EXACTLY* what makes a blow forward different than a spool valve. I'm not arguing that they don't function similiarly... I'm saying the small differences are what make the Ion less like a Matrix and more like a Mag.

The Ion has one operational difference from the Matrix, and about 5 operational differences from a 'mag. In fact, the one operation difference from the Matrix is the only similarity to the 'mag. The Ion even resembles a Matrix. Heck, you could put an air fitting on the back of an Ion to make it a true spool valve, and you could modify the Matrix to operate just like an Ion. And both the Ion and Matrix could be used as true pneumatic markers.

C) Why wouldn't Dye go after ICD, which is a smaller company, with the *EXACT* same design (electopneumatic blow forward) but had the marker on the market at least a year earlier?

Because the Freestyle isn't similar enough to a Matrix to infringe. The Freestyle is closer to a 'mag than the Ion... It uses a powertube; once the bolt clears the tube, the chamber dumps... exactly like a 'mag. The Ion uses essentially a spool valve (you could say it's not technicly a spool, but it's very similar); a slot in the bolt clears a ring seal and allows the chamber to dump through the slot and bolt... exactly like the Matrix.

[Tim 3]

Now you know why SP has sold 50 thousand IONs already.

It is a compounding situation,I think of it like this...

ION = riced out Honda but coming that way stock. (No offence to the Honda 'ricers )

as they compare to say, Z06 Vette or a Porsche or whatever.

Mag = Classic american muscel(sp)

[FallNAngel]

interesting, twisted stuff.. :)

interesting and twisted stuff indeed. So it's the fact that the Ion bolt cuts off it's own air supply that Dye is going after smart parts... not that the operation of the blow forward is too close to the Matrix. So... basically all SP has to do is not have the bolt cut off it's own air flow when the bolt is forward to get around the patent?

The Ion has one operational difference from the Matrix, and about 5 operational differences from a 'mag.

That's like saying mech cockers aren't the same as electo cockers because they're functionally different... I mean, electro cockers have a solenoid instead of a 3-way, they have a solenoid to actuate the sear... it's the same design. How it gets to the end is a bit different, but the design is the same.

In fact, the one operation difference from the Matrix is the only similarity to the 'mag.

The Ion even resembles a Matrix.

No... not really...

Heck, you could put an air fitting on the back of an Ion to make it a true spool valve

No, you can't. The air that's going to be used to fire the ball is the same air that pushes the bolt forward in a blow forward design. You'd have to make significant changes to the Ion to get it to function like a spool valved gun.

and you could modify the Matrix to operate just like an Ion. And both the Ion and Matrix could be used as true pneumatic markers.

Again, not without significant changes. With the LPR turned all the way out on a Matrix, the bolt will still stay back. You'll have to figure out how to
A) get the operating pressure to put force on the back of the bolt to blow the bolt forward
B) get enough LPR pressure to apply enough force to push the bolt back against the HP air

Because the Freestyle isn't similar enough to a Matrix to infringe.

Going by what NiCad said, it's because the Freestyle's bolt doesn't cut off it's own air supply. Aside from the Ion cutting off it's own air supply, the Ion functions *EXACTLY* like a Freestyle.

The Freestyle is closer to a 'mag than the Ion... It uses a powertube; once the bolt clears the tube, the chamber dumps... exactly like a 'mag.

Actually, the chamber doesn't dump... Freestyles just vent air. Even with the HE kit, the flow of air doesn't stop. Yes, the *PARTS* used in a Freestyle is more similiar to a Mag than an Ion... it doesn't mean the *FUNCTION* is different. They both function as blowforwards... the only difference is that mag's have an on/off to cut off the air supply. That's really about it.

The Ion uses essentially a spool valve (you could say it's not technicly a spool, but it's very similar); a slot in the bolt clears a ring seal and allows the chamber to dump through the slot and bolt... exactly like the Matrix.

Well, you could say the same thing about a Freestyle... when the bolt moves forward from the air pressure, the o-ring on the valve stem clears the power tube and allows air to vent through the slot in the bolt...

[Twiek]

That's like saying mech cockers aren't the same as electo cockers because they're functionally different... I mean, electro cockers have a solenoid instead of a 3-way, they have a solenoid to actuate the sear... it's the same design. How it gets to the end is a bit different, but the design is the same.

No, electro cockers aren't functionally different from mech cockers. They still have a sear, and they still have a 4-way. They still operate in the same manner. The same way that an E-mag is functionally the same as a normal 'mag (you can even use an e-mag mechanicly).

The Ion and 'mags are significantly different. No sear, no spring, no on-off, no powertube, completely pneumatic operation, and essentialy a spool bolt. The Matrix has no sear, no spring, no on-off, no powertube, compltely pneumatic operation, and a spool bolt. The Ion and 'mag are "blow forward", where the Matrix is a "force forward".

If the Ion is like a 'mag because of that one similarity, regardless of the similarities to the matrix, then I'll say that a 'cocker is like an Ego because they both use poppet valves.

No, you can't. The air that's going to be used to fire the ball is the same air that pushes the bolt forward in a blow forward design. You'd have to make significant changes to the Ion to get it to function like a spool valved gun.

All you'd have to do is apply pressure to the very back of the bolt (the rear of the tail). If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.

Again, not without significant changes. With the LPR turned all the way out on a Matrix, the bolt will still stay back. You'll have to figure out how to
A) get the operating pressure to put force on the back of the bolt to blow the bolt forward
B) get enough LPR pressure to apply enough force to push the bolt back against the HP air

Simple. Machine down the tail of the bolt. With the tail of the bolt smaller than the forward chamber seal, it will be forced forward when the chamber is full.

[pop tart]

buy this gun

the bushmaster with pds is killer for only 319

[FallNAngel]

No, electro cockers aren't functionally different from mech cockers. They still have a sear, and they still have a 4-way. They still operate in the same manner. The same way that an E-mag is functionally the same as a normal 'mag (you can even use an e-mag mechanicly).[/b]

Which is the same with an Ion and Automag... Instead of a sear and spring, you have a solenoid and air pressure... It accomplishes the EXACT same thing. They are functionally the same except the on/off.

The Ion and 'mag are "blow forward", where the Matrix is a "force forward".

The Matrix is a spool valve... not sure where you're getting the term "force forward"... sounds like you're making stuff up as you go along now.

If the Ion is like a 'mag because of that one similarity, regardless of the similarities to the matrix, then I'll say that a 'cocker is like an Ego because they both use poppet valves.

Now, you're just trying to be difficult. The cocker's bolt and hammer aren't linked, one is a closed bolt, one is open. If you wanted to say a timmy is like an Ego, that I'd agree with. Functionally, they're the same.

If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.All you'd have to do is apply pressure to the very back of the bolt (the rear of the tail). If you really wanted to, you could machine down the middle of the bolt and use a smaller bolt stop so that the bolt didn't naturally have a forward force. Many of the bolt kits will replace the bolt stop in the same methodology, so I wouldn't call it a "significant" change.

Applying pressure to the back of the bolt would put force on the rear of the tail, which would push the bolt forward. All you've done is move where on the bolt the pressure pushes.

Simple. Machine down the tail of the bolt. With the tail of the bolt smaller than the forward chamber seal, it will be forced forward when the chamber is full.

Yes, but you also have to deal with *FORCE*. The force of the operating pressure pushing forward on that large of a piston is likely to easily overpower the force of the LPR pressure.

[Twiek]

Which is the same with an Ion and Automag... Instead of a sear and spring, you have a solenoid and air pressure... It accomplishes the EXACT same thing. They are functionally the same except the on/off.

Now, you're just trying to be difficult. The cocker's bolt and hammer aren't linked, one is a closed bolt, one is open. If you wanted to say a timmy is like an Ego, that I'd agree with. Functionally, they're the same.

So, the difference between sear/spring and solenoid/air pressure is somehow less than the difference between bolt and hammer linked? There are kits to turn blow backs (similar to an Ego/Timmy) into 'cockers (i.e. unlinking the bolt and hammer)... They don't make kits to turn 'Mags into Ions. If you say it accomplishes the same thing, then the bolt forward and reverse strokes on a 'cocker and Ego are both powered by pressure, and controlled by a 4 way, accomplishing the same thing (using the same method, no less).

If you really want to talk about accomplishing the exact same thing, then all paintball guns are functionally the same. They all use air pressure to fling spherical geletin encapsulated balls of paint out of a round barrel (most of which use bolts to accomplish the chambering of a ball).

Or, you could say that the forward force applied by the chamber on the bolt accomplishes the EXACT same thing that the pressure applied to the rear of the "ram" part of the bolt in the Matrix.

The Matrix is a spool valve... not sure where you're getting the term "force forward"... sounds like you're making stuff up as you go along now.

I used the term "force forward" to indicate that the mode of forward bolt travel is only slightly different than the Ion. Instead of using the area difference between the front and rear chamber seals, you apply pressure to a separate chamber to do the same thing. It forces the bolt forward instead of "blowing" it forward. Hence the term.

Applying pressure to the back of the bolt would put force on the rear of the tail, which would push the bolt forward. All you've done is move where on the bolt the pressure pushes.

Yes, exactly. It would become a spool valve at that point. If the pressure on the rear of the bolt was switched (along with the air to the front of the bolt) by a 4-way, then you have a true spool-valve. This is because the only difference between the Ion in the Matrix is where/which air pushes the bolt forward.

Yes, but you also have to deal with *FORCE*. The force of the operating pressure pushing forward on that large of a piston is likely to easily overpower the force of the LPR pressure.

Umm... that's just math. You'd machine down the tail only so far, so the return air pressure would create more rearward force than the forward force from the pressure in the chamber... If you gave me the dimensions of the bolt in the Matrix, I could tell you exactly how far to machine it to match the forces in the Ion. You won't need an LPR (just like the Ion dosen't), and if you remember, the first Matrixes didn't have them either.

[tyrion2323]

Why are you guys *STILL* arguing over this...? It's been post after post of, "no - YOU're wrong," "no- YOU're wrong,"

AAIGGH!

[FallNAngel]

So, the difference between sear/spring and solenoid/air pressure is somehow less than the difference between bolt and hammer linked? There are kits to turn blow backs (similar to an Ego/Timmy) into 'cockers (i.e. unlinking the bolt and hammer)...

Yes... which changes the function of the marker... At that point it's not an open bolt blowback, it's a closed bolt blowback. The Ion is still a blow forward, which is different than a Matrix, which is a spool valve.

They don't make kits to turn 'Mags into Ions. If you say it accomplishes the same thing, then the bolt forward and reverse strokes on a 'cocker and Ego are both powered by pressure, and controlled by a 4 way, accomplishing the same thing (using the same method, no less).

Yes, and cockers are fired with a hammer with force from a spring and are closed bolt. Ego's are fired with a hammer with the force of air pressure and are open bolt.

If you really want to talk about accomplishing the exact same thing, then all paintball guns are functionally the same. They all use air pressure to fling spherical geletin encapsulated balls of paint out of a round barrel (most of which use bolts to accomplish the chambering of a ball).

Yes, then get broken down into different categories depending on *HOW* it fires the ball out of the barrel, such as open bolt blow back, spool valve, blow forward, etc.

Or, you could say that the forward force applied by the chamber on the bolt accomplishes the EXACT same thing that the pressure applied to the rear of the "ram" part of the bolt in the Matrix.

No, it would not be the exact same thing as a Matrix. In a Matrix, the air used to fire the ball *DOES NOT* move the bolt... at all. Period. It is not used in any way, shape or form to move the bolt. Air gets moved into an air chamber, then seperate pressure (at least for the newer generations... the *OLD* matrices didn't have LPRS) is used to move the bolt. In blow forwards, the same air that will propell the ball, also moves the bolt forward. Here, the force it takes to move the bolt forward and back *MUST* be balanced properly... it does not have to be balanced on a spool valve.

I used the term "force forward" to indicate that the mode of forward bolt travel is only slightly different than the Ion.

Yes, but it's those small differences that separate the two models. Either you're converting it to a spool valve, keeping it the same model, or coming up with something completely different.

Yes, exactly. It would become a spool valve at that point. If the pressure on the rear of the bolt was switched (along with the air to the front of the bolt) by a 4-way, then you have a true spool-valve. This is because the only difference between the Ion in the Matrix is where/which air pushes the bolt forward.

Yes, the difference *IS* which air pushes the bolt forward... at this point, you're *STILL* using air that will fire the ball to move the bolt... which makes it a blow forward.

Umm... that's just math. You'd machine down the tail only so far, so the return air pressure would create more rearward force than the forward force from the pressure in the chamber... If you gave me the dimensions of the bolt in the Matrix, I could tell you exactly how far to machine it to match the forces in the Ion. You won't need an LPR (just like the Ion dosen't), and if you remember, the first Matrixes didn't have them either.

Yes, I know it's just math, but the stem can only be machined down so far before it's out of tolerance with the parts around it (sealing purposes)... which means you may need new parts. I'm not saying it can't be done... I'm saying it can't be done easily.

Why are you guys *STILL* arguing over this...? It's been post after post of, "no - YOU're wrong," "no- YOU're wrong,"

AAIGGH!

Why? Because we want to. If you don't want to chime in and take a stance, you don't have to. As it is, this isn't a flame fest, there's no name calling and nothing is getting out of hand.

[Lohman446]

Its a matter of what is protected under patent

Do minor details keep it from infringing on intellectual property rights (as SP argues with teh Ion)

or

Does the base theory of makign something happen, well how broad of a theory, make something patentable (as SP argues on the electronics patent)

[Twiek]

Yes, and cockers are fired with a hammer with force from a spring and are closed bolt. Ego's are fired with a hammer with the force of air pressure and are open bolt.

Yes, and 'mags are returned with force from a spring and have a separate on-off, and Ions are returned from force of air pressure and have a "spool bolt" that integrates the on-off. If that makes a difference between the 'cocker and the Ego, then why dosen't it make a difference between a 'mag and an Ion?

No, it would not be the exact same thing as a Matrix. In a Matrix, the air used to fire the ball *DOES NOT* move the bolt... at all. Period. It is not used in any way, shape or form to move the bolt. Air gets moved into an air chamber, then seperate pressure (at least for the newer generations... the *OLD* matrices didn't have LPRS) is used to move the bolt. In blow forwards, the same air that will propell the ball, also moves the bolt forward. Here, the force it takes to move the bolt forward and back *MUST* be balanced properly... it does not have to be balanced on a spool valve.

No, the Ion is not exactly like the matrix... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Ion is similar to the matrix.

Yes, but it's those small differences that separate the two models.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is a small difference that separates the two models, and only a small difference. There is a large difference between an Ion and a 'mag.

Yes, the difference *IS* which air pushes the bolt forward... at this point, you're *STILL* using air that will fire the ball to move the bolt... which makes it a blow forward.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. The air going into the back of the bolt is not the air in the chamber... it's air from a 4-way:



In which case, it functions exactly like a Matrix. In fact, the area difference between the rear tail seal and the forward bolt is 0.004 sq. in. So at 40 psi (a good estimate of LPR pressure, should one be used), the difference in force between forward and return is only 0.17 pounds (return being greater).

Yes, I know it's just math, but the stem can only be machined down so far before it's out of tolerance with the parts around it (sealing purposes)... which means you may need new parts. I'm not saying it can't be done... I'm saying it can't be done easily.

Not the stem, the tail.... You'd have to use a different (or sleve the current one) rear chamber seal, but if the operating pressure is 170 psi, you'd only need a 0.02 sq. in. difference to create a forward force of 4 pounds. There is plenty of material on the stock bolt to do that. Changing two parts for ones that are only slightly different (or modifing the current parts to work) isn't what I'd call hard.

Why? Because we want to. If you don't want to chime in and take a stance, you don't have to. As it is, this isn't a flame fest, there's no name calling and nothing is getting out of hand.

Agreed.

[FallNAngel]

Yes, and 'mags are returned with force from a spring and have a separate on-off, and Ions are returned from force of air pressure and have a "spool bolt" that integrates the on-off. If that makes a difference between the 'cocker and the Ego, then why dosen't it make a difference between a 'mag and an Ion?[/b]

Because the Ion and Mag use the same model to accomplish the same goal. Comparing a cocker and ego is like comparing apples and oranges.. Now if you want to compare an ego and angel or intimidator, that'll work... they all function the same exact way.

No, the Ion is not exactly like the matrix... that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the Ion is similar to the matrix.

I never said it wasn't similiar. I actually said it *WAS* similiar... but the Mag is closer, being that they're both blow forwards.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is a small difference that separates the two models, and only a small difference. There is a large difference between an Ion and a 'mag.

Large in that one is spring instead of air returned and one is held back by air instead of a sear. Basically, one is held back by spring and sear, the other is by air... everything else is basically the same.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying. The air going into the back of the bolt is not the air in the chamber... it's air from a 4-way:

Ok... but the operating pressure is still going to be pushing forward on the bolt... In a Matrix, the operating pressure doesn't push forward on the bolt.


There's a difference between "is a" and "like a". This whole thing started by Miscue saying that the Ion works like a Matrix. The Ion and Mag are both blow forwards, the Matrix is a spool valve. They function similiar, sure do. They even feel pretty close shooting (at least to me), but I would without a doubt say Ion is closer to a Mag. I mean, it's much easier to describe an Ion by saying "It functions like a mag, except it's held back and returned by air pressure." as opposed to trying to tell how you would have to modify a Matrix to become a blow forward. About the closest similiarity that the Matrix and Ion have, is that they're both fully electropneumatic... that's about it.