Thoughts on ION, SP, Hype.. other makers..

[Enraged Monk]

Okay, well heres a math lesson!

the Ion has the capability of shooting 17 bps, and costs around 285. $285/17BPS=16.7647059, thats roughly 17 dollars per BPS.

Now, lets do the Evo, just to be fair.

The Evo, with eyes on, is only cappable of 12 BPS. It costs around 250. 250 / 12 = 20.8333333 thats about 21 dollars per BPS.



Now lets look at the facts

..................................Ion............E vo
Eyes............................X................x
Bps.............................17..............12
True Electro-Pnue..........x
Stock Reg..................decent........sub-par

I want to know one way, other than price, which is not that great considering its $21 per BPS, that the Evo out Performs the Ion

Sean


Sorry for ressurecting an old thread, just had a few things to say.

[FallNAngel]

Sorry if this is considered raising a dead thread...

now thats just being ignorant

Well, it's my opinion. Have I shot both? Nope.. I haven't even *HELD* both. From what I've seen of a track record for smart parts guns, their QC is iffy. This doesn't mean other companies are automagically better... it's just what I've seen. Either way, it's my opinion.... which I think I'm entitled to...

negative

Well, let's look:

Matrix: Spool valve
Ion: Blow forward
Automag: Blow forward

How is the Ion more like a Matrix than a Mag? Blow forwards use operating pressure to move the bolt forward, unlike spool valves which use a seperate source of air to move the bolt forward and back.

[Glickman]

Well, it's my opinion. Have I shot both? Nope.. I haven't even *HELD* both. From what I've seen of a track record for smart parts guns, their QC is iffy. This doesn't mean other companies are automagically better... it's just what I've seen. Either way, it's my opinion.... which I think I'm entitled to...

one thing to think about is:

how many newbies buy automags?

vs

how many newbies buy smart parts products?


id say 95% of smart parts error are user error. never had any trouble in:

02 Horiz. Max impulse
03 Vert. Max Impulse
03 Ultimate Shocker
03 Max-Flow Tank
05 Ion


i like their quality control, id say its pretty damn good, awsome customer support.


pmi on the other hand, if you want poort quality control and poor customer service...

[minimag03]

I agree with everything he said in the first post. The only thing that would make people get the Ion is the ramping.

[Glickman]

I agree with everything he said in the first post. The only thing that would make people get the Ion is the ramping.

where the hell are all of these posts going? in one ear out the other?

im sure everyone and their dog bought an ion for ramping

Reliable (ive dropped mine many times)
Well Performing (Shocker performance & speed)
Light
Nice profile
Cheap

ill take this over an xmag anyday...

[minimag03]

i like their quality control, id say its pretty damn good, awsome customer support.

pmi on the other hand, if you want poort quality control and poor customer service...

Are you kidding? PMI's service is close to AGD's and AKA's in my experience.

On the other hand, I call in and talk to the techs on SP and none of them were able to help me with my shoebox Shocker. I also just got a AA barrel for my cocker. When it got here it had a huge scratch in the middle of the barrel back.

[Codekevin0403]

i think that the ion is a not so great gun. I sold mine in a week because of a leaking problem...i'm not getting into that here though. But i think the reason that the EVO isn't selling so great is because PMI has so low-end guns out there. But the ION is made by smart parts, which put out relatively expensive paintball guns compared with PMI, such as the nerve and the shocker. So that's why i think that the ion is doing so great, because it was made by a factory in which they sell some nicer guns than PMI. Of course hype plays a role in it too, but can they really have backorder of some 14,000 or so guns just because of it???


oh, and also, i didnt' bother to read pages 2 through whatever, so don't get mad at me if somebody already said it.

[Glickman]

Are you kidding? PMI's service is close to AGD's and AKA's in my experience.

On the other hand, I call in and talk to the techs on SP and none of them were able to help me with my shoebox Shocker. I also just got a AA barrel for my cocker. When it got here it had a huge scratch in the middle of the barrel back.

tell that to my neck and my arm which got cut up once each from "exploding" gauge.first time they installed it. sent it back, i had it aired up, slowly , during a game it just popped and shattered, cutting my arm

whats better?

they sent my tank to california... noone there took responsibility for it... just loved not having my tank for shatnerball. they sent me the wrong tank, decided to just use the tank they sent for that one day of shatnerball. guess what, popped and cut open the back of my neck. (totally different field, slow filled, totally different tank)

[minimag03]

If the samething is happening with the tanks, then it sounds like one tech doesn't know what he is doing. I'd talk to higher people and tell them about what happened. I own two Pure Energy tanks and use a Thor reg and I never had a problem with them.

[Glickman]

If the samething is happening with the tanks, then it sounds like one tech doesn't know what he is doing. I'd talk to higher people and tell them about what happened. I own two Pure Energy tanks and use a Thor reg and I never had a problem with them.

the guy i sent it though (if its sent by a company it gets done faster) spoke with the president, who told him to basically F* off...

id call him personally (hell only talk to store owners), but i dont want to pay the long distance charges to hell

[Twiek]

Ions are cast aluminum,much cheaper than milled,

Whoa, where in the world did you hear that? All the aluminum is machined. You think they can get the tolerances tight enough for a spool valve gun with casting? Why do you think Tippman guns have such a coarse barrel thread? Heck, you can even see some of the tooling marks on the Ion.

Powder coat cheaper than anno,

The internals are annoed. Again, for tolerances. Yes, powder coating is cheaper, but that's not to say that it's worse for the truely cosmetic pieces (grip frame, outside of barrel/bottom line).

They use a very in-expensive very simple basic soleniod, Simple, pre asembled eye system,

I'd say those are good things. The solenoid is very simple and extremely durable. Just take one appart and see how they work. The seals are very much like cup seals in poppet valves, the core is beefy, and there aren't any springs to wear out... I would expect them to last a very long while.

The daughterboard concept is a good idea. I had CAD'ed designs of custom guns from a year ago with something similar. After 4 cases, I haven't had a single chop or barrel break... the eyes work.

Very basic and in-expensively built PC board and buttons,

It has adjustable dwell, adjustable rof, 4 firing modes (including ramping), eye functionality, and an easy way to turn the eyes off. It's capped, but that's not because it's "cheap" (the board itself could cycle @ 30+ if it was uncapped). Really, what more do you want?

The have no LPR,

Then a $1200 X-Mag must be cheap too... they don't have LPR's. How is this a valid argument? So what if it dosen't have an LPR? The Ion dosen't need one, neither do 'mags... does that automaticly make them cheap? LPR's add weight, cost, bulk, complexity, and higher maintainance. I could critisize mech 'mags for not having batteries, but then again, that's the reason a lot of people own them in the first place.

Well, let's look:

Matrix: Spool valve
Ion: Blow forward
Automag: Blow forward

How is the Ion more like a Matrix than a Mag? Blow forwards use operating pressure to move the bolt forward, unlike spool valves which use a seperate source of air to move the bolt forward and back.

For those of you who have forgotten how an Ion works (or never new in the first place), here's the ani:



Yes, it's a blow forward. However, it's much more like a matrix than a 'Mag. The only difference between the Ion and a Matrix/DM is that the forward stroke of the bolt/"spool" on the Ion is powered by the chamber. The Ion dosen't have a separate on/off (while the Ion's bolt dosen't totally cut off the flow, the wide tail does reduce the flow to almost nothing), it dosen't have a sear, and it dosen't have a spring. In fact, the only springs in the entire gun are one in the 'reg and one inside the microswitch. There is a reason Dye is sueing SP over this design.

[RRfireblade]

Whoa, where in the world did you hear that? All the aluminum is machined. You think they can get the tolerances tight enough for a spool valve gun with casting? Why do you think Tippman guns have such a coarse barrel thread? Heck, you can even see some of the tooling marks on the Ion.

it starts as a base casting made of cast aluminum, pot metal essentially and MUCH cheaper than starting with 6000 series aluminum as most other do



The internals are annoed. Again, for tolerances. Yes, powder coating is cheaper, but that's not to say that it's worse for the truely cosmetic pieces (grip frame, outside of barrel/bottom line).

They are tumbled and done in clear...another cost saving process.And we already covered Powder Coating is yes...anther cost saving method

I'd say those are good things. The solenoid is very simple and extremely durable. Just take one appart and see how they work. The seals are very much like cup seals in poppet valves, the core is beefy, and there aren't any springs to wear out... I would expect them to last a very long while.


You have no idea how durable it is so don't pretend to guess. I also said it may be but there is NO question it is a cheaper less quality part than what most others use today.

The daughterboard concept is a good idea. I had CAD'ed designs of custom guns from a year ago with something similar. After 4 cases, I haven't had a single chop or barrel break... the eyes work.

Good idea? Sure...cheaper to manufacturer? Right again. Lesser quality than a resin encapsulated board? You bet.

It has adjustable dwell, adjustable rof, 4 firing modes (including ramping), eye functionality, and an easy way to turn the eyes off. It's capped, but that's not because it's "cheap" (the board itself could cycle @ 30+ if it was uncapped). Really, what more do you want?

Since when does software become the determining factor of a quality built component? See my response to the eye board

Then a $1200 X-Mag must be cheap too... they don't have LPR's. How is this a valid argument? So what if it dosen't have an LPR? The Ion dosen't need one, neither do 'mags... does that automaticly make them cheap? LPR's add weight, cost, bulk, complexity, and higher maintainance. I could critisize mech 'mags for not having batteries, but then again, that's the reason a lot of people own them in the first place.

Obviously the Xmag does NOT require an LPR for normal operation,nor does it benefit from one in ANY way.It's NOT an eletro-pnuematic marker.Is it however built of better quality componets than an ION, without question. Most others however do have LPRs and benefit from them.Also, most would rather not risk failure to the E-niods due to over pressurization, not to mention enhanced efficiency in most cases as well. AND....it adds cost to the marker.Another cost sutting measure on the ION, sorry but true.

[Lohman446]

I honestly dont think the Ion has an overpressurazation to the solenoid concern.. those macro lines arent going to hold in the bnody long enough for htat to be a concern

[RRfireblade]

Oh and BTW, if an LPR would have benefited the XMAG in ANY way, you bet you bottom dollar AGD would have included one.

[SNDavidson]

We know... but we don't care. At least, that's what we'd like everyone to think. The average poster here will be quick to tell you that this is a dead topic, that smart parts has been discussed in this manner thousands (it probably has) of times in already. Shouldn't we all ask ourselves why this sort of thing doesn't go away? Why does this topic not end? The truth is, we all love our mags, we all love AGD. But in the back of our minds, we wonder why there hasn't been anything new. I don't care what you say, it's true. It's difficult to think this way, and maybe that's why we snuff these topics before they ever get started, because we know there's nothing new on the way. Now, you can blame it on the nature of the paintball business and it's advertising, the incredibly fast production of "new" equipment... or even smart parts. The fact is, AGD just hasn't done much of anything in a long time, and it stinks. Yet we still log on every day. I just have one thing to say: AGD, do it, make the uber marker of death and destruction, you make it, we'll all find a way to buy it, and when we buy it, more will follow suit, and so on and so forth. You are, and always will be the king...you've proved it to us, prove it to everyone, paintball is more than a community now, it's a full on sport. dominate... please.