Ions new Competition

[VFX_Fenix]

You can call it what you will, I'm not interested. Smart Parts made a buisness move that it seems to have benefited from. However, in my eyes it was not in the spirit of advancing the sport. And certainly not in the spirit of good will or cooperation. I understand that they are running a buisness, but all the same, I will not be purchasing anything from Smart Parts. They made their choice and I made mine. If you're indifferent, or like SP, I dont mind, thats your choice. Flame me for it if you want, but I will not support them.


Nigel F

No, it was done in the spirit of protecting their "intelectual" property which is the entire reason for the Patent system here in the US and other palces in the world. That was a business move not a sport move. Now as to wether or not it was their property to protect is another issue. The problem is actually coming from the patent office itself, as I see it anyway, in that the office isn't issuing patents for single items anymore, but broad swaths of items.

E.G. You build a toaster that uses 3 coils and makes a triangular pattern and you get a patent for that design. Someone else comes along and builds a toaster that uses 4 coils that are parrallel to eachother and gets a patent for that. These permutations of the same toaster concept continue with each company/individual making a slightly different coil arrangement and this is how things generally worked in the past. Now the patent office will give you a patent for "a toaster", it doesn't matter what it looks like on the inside or the outside, how many coils it has, etc. etc. etc. Someone just got a patent for this broad and sweeping concept of "a toaster". Smart Parts has been issued such a patent and they've taken advantage of this fault/loop hole in the patent system, not unlike using a Reactive Trigger, or Turbo, or Debounce, or Ramping to gain an advantage while working within the limitations of the system.

As for the Glock issue - Consider that the Austrian company also in the "development" of it's .40 S&W model didn't take the time to design a gun around the caliber it would be shooting, They simply took a 9mm and bored it out to accept a 10mm round which leads to some interesting problems and "explosive" dissasembly. I believe that H&K would be a better example here.

For the Labor Union issues - In this instance a Labor Union the Union has some sway as to how things are run and they also have federal protection in the event that they choose not to work (strike) for what ever reason. If you or anyone else signs a contract stating employment for X days/months/years/etc. you are obligated to work while that contract is still in tact. However this is FAR from slavery since a slave would not recieve compensation for their work (i.e. $$$).

[NigelF]

Lohman, I know I dont know all the details of the SP situation. If you are aware of anyplace I could learn more about it, I would be interested in doing some reading. But what has trickled down to me so far doesnt rub me quite the right way. I dont hate smart parts, I would just feel a little slimy making a big purchase from them right now (not that I'm in a position to do so anyway... but thats another story that no one wants to hear).


NigelF

[VFX_Fenix]

NIgel - Check out the Patent Office web page, look for patents issued to Smart Parts or William Gardner. Actually some interesting reading if you like legal jargon, pay particular attention to the "touch trigger" patent which is the one that sort of kicked off SP's big legal move.

[Lohman446]

Lohman, I know I dont know all the details of the SP situation. If you are aware of anyplace I could learn more about it, I would be interested in doing some reading. But what has trickled down to me so far doesnt rub me quite the right way. I dont hate smart parts, I would just feel a little slimy making a big purchase from them right now (not that I'm in a position to do so anyway... but thats another story that no one wants to hear).


NigelF

I think what trickles down becomes very two sided depending on your gut feeling of it.

For instance - AKA ceasing to produce electronic markers
Position A) AKA ceased production on a maker that clearly violated an issued US patent after being issued a cease and desist order by that patents holder. AKA's production of such a product was infringing on the right of the owner to profity fully from there intellectual property.
Position B) SP forced AKA to quit producing electronic markers because of greed

Both would be somewhat accurate representations of what it sounds like happened (understanding that very few of us have all the info and specifics).

I disagree with your position - however I fully acknowledge the validity of the conclusions you made. Even if it were not valid, this is a free market, you have no obligation to purchase a marker from anyone with or without a good reason. I was using your argument to demonstrate what I considered a valid argument for discussion versus some rather less useful knee jerk and inaccurate "sound byte".

Your arguments were well reasoned conclusions - which I disagree with but I understand. Comparing SP to Nazis is just

[yakitori]

Video Preview

thats freakin hilarious miscue. I got a good laugh out of that. Sad, but lots of ballers look like that.

[CKY_Alliance]

The differences are so vast between modern day workers (the GM example) and slavery that to compare slavery to these workers... which is not even close trivializes the suffering that the victims of slavery endured. Even this I'm comparing workers to workers, but you get the idea on what I mean I assume.

To compare the Nazi goverment to SP (its not even comparing workers to workers, but again just go with it) is so far off that it trivializes the sufferings of the victims of the holocaust.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make? I am in no way trying to triviliaze those sufferings, and to draw an anology to GM workers and slavery or SP to the Nazi regime is . You don't have to agree with that last thing, as long as you understand what I am trying to say.

Yea i see.Just the whole o no cant hurt any ones feeling crap gets on my nerves (nothign against you,just in general) and thats how i took the not to offend the people and ancestors thing.
The whole smart parts are nazis is a pretty retarted analogy like you said.

[PBX Ronin 23]

At the price that DYE is asking for this new gun.....you can only consider it an entry-level gun if your first car was a Ferrari and you wallpaper your kitchen with $100 bills.

Kinda hard to see anything coming from DYE being "cheap".

[slade]

nice... but as i said with the ion its likely to have reliability issues. actually if you think about it, it HAS to have reliability issues, or quality issues at least (bad trigger, shell breaks, etc), because then thered be no point in buying a DM5/proto (cept if someone is just elitist or REALLY wants it to be aluminum), so dye would be killing its own products. it looks a lot better than the ion though, i might check it out... probably wont buy it though. maybe ill get a freestyle once these new cheap spool valve guns cause the price to drop even more

i definately want to see another pic though, cause from what i can see it looks good and the pic was taken fairly well, but half the marker isnt visable.

I heard a rumor that this marker isnt a $300 marker.

Its completely the opposite, and is going to be more expensive than the DM5.

Only a rumor...lets see if its true

definately not true... its the dye matrix COMPOSITE. i assume that means composite plastic, thus cheap. im guessing they made it to compete with the ion. well not guess, i can say that with almost 100% certainty.

*edit* whoa!! my bad, thats what i get for not reading the whole thread before posting... damn $1700?? i think dye is going a little bit overboard here...

[thump]

and just how much will this new Dye marker cost,,,well i found one site that says $1699.00 but i dont know if its right or not...
linky

http://www.skanline.com/products/2226.html

and

http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/products/2226.html

[bull]

Uh, no. Glocks have been pulled from just about every P.D. out there, as they have atrocious jamming problems with misfeeds. When you practice clearing with a Glock, you have to use a plastic training round. Why? Because using brass fouls the chamber, and requires disassembly.

Oh, and Godwin surrenders, newblars.

While Iam not one who runs around saying the Glock is the ultimate hundgun, what planet are you from. Glock is one of the most rugged and reliable weapons platforms out there. No police agencies that I know have given up the glock, including mine. I know one local agency that leaves a Glock hanging in a tree and shoots it with every academy class that comes through. That gun has never failed. I would like to know what agencies you are talking about or who told you this.

Also how does brass foul a chamber? Gunpowder residue will foul, dirt will foul, but brass is just brass. Have you ever seen a handgun? Do you know what a Glock is. Please provide me with your info because it is wrong.

Where do I get my info..... current firearms instructor in law enforcement, prior law enforcement special operations, certified glock armouer. Like I said the glock is not the perfect pistol (needs a manuel safety and a trigger disconnect) but not because of what you describe.

[CoolHand]

There's a difference between Capitalism and a Monopoly......

There is also a big difference between a capitalist monopoly, and a fascism.

Namely, the former is an economic practice that controls prices through a stranglehold on supply, while the latter is an oppressive form of government, under which all things percieved as weak are stamped out, and all things percieved as strength are encouraged. The latter is also the form of government responsible for the extermination of upwards of 6 million Jews in the 1930's and 40's.

You cannot possibly think that one is comparable to the other.

For the love of all that is good and holy, find another buzz word to label SP with. Calling them Nazi's is overly inflamatory, and blunts the horror of what the real Nazi's did by twisting the definition of the term. There are those in the world that could and should be called Nazi's, but the things you have to do to join their ranks is far beyond simply limiting the choices on the PB marker market.

Call them robber barrons, or whatever you like, but try to at least muster up an insult that has something to do with economics and the free market (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Damn, didn't see there was a whole second page of people saying the same thing. Oh well, I'm not the touchy feely type, but I do tire of seeing people change the definition of a term to suit them (or worse yet, use the term not knowing what it means).

On those grounds, I will leave this rant stand.

[GT]

I read a great article about sp.

SP=good buisness. What they did was good buisness, they invested in a number of patents and essentailly shut down the compatition. If anyone had an once of buisness sense they would have done the same. Lets not over simplify what a PITA it is to get a patent through.

gt

[barrel break]

I see exactly where this is going (not really, but an idea!).
Dye has no interest in entry level stuff, this is simply another high end god gun. they used composite because it allows for a lighter gun. everyone likes lighter, right?

[Codekevin0403]

ok, i'm pretty sure this marker isn't made to compete with the ion, but it is supposed to compete with the new Angel G7. This is not a low cost marker, it costs $1699. Also, composite in the DMC does not mean plastic, but more along the lines of Aluminum and Titanium. If i find the website where i found this stuff out, i'll post it. But please don't mistake it as the competitor for the Ion, because many people will be extremely dissapointed

[Codekevin0403]

aha i have found it.
plus there's a link to pre-order it.

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story04817.php