the one thing that could save automags.

[Teamslayer76]

I love the peaceful disscussion here, but with a little laughter and poke fun and dead horses.
Yes, all agreed, the only peoply who will purchase a Automag is a person who is already established in the Cult of AGD. Otherwise the only way I can see is if they find out about them by us. AGD has no advertising what so ever, well to my knowledge. ...hmmm...

I'd imagine if they redesigned the cosmetics of any Automag make it look "new" "modern" "cool/agg" it would sell. Or all of us, as I try, advertise for them. Speard the word is my answer.
Tell people about the markers, tell new players! Let friends use your Automags show them the greatness and the constant evolution, Mq-Valve, Pneu-Mag, E-Mags.

Also beauty, it a tough line to go by. We have the ugliest markers in the world {IMHO} but they can be sexy killing machines. Show people custom milling bodies, annos ect ect.
I've gotten a few peopel to purchase Mags by showing them the gallery on www.zakvetter.com the majority of those are great looking.

But remember, this is mostly my opinion.

With hope,
Teamslayer76

Edited for sp..which I likely didn't get all, its late.

[Glickman]

I've gotten a few peopel to purchase Mags by showing them the gallery on www.zakvetter.com the majority of those are great looking.

well, cant say much there if they are buying guns based on image. i thought thats what kingman was around for


Some of you say that "ooh, they just dont know the power of automags." Give everyone more credit. automags are just not cost-effective, compared to some other options.



"I'd imagine if they redesigned the cosmetics of any Automag make it look "new" "modern" "cool/agg" it would sell."


yeeesh. lets see, no major of economics here, but ill wager my saving to say that this would pick up maybe a few hundred customers at the most, but also loose alot of very dedicated customers (i call this the "Automags.org superiority complex") but i could see how they might feel "betrayed."

[Duzzy]

Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

Dear Lord save me now from the shims, spacers, and most of all the springs for they know not what they do to me in my idiocy. And O-rings. Don't get me started. No one wants to deal with O-rings and that's why you don't see very many spool valved markers around.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

I'm not even going to respond to this. Actually, I am. If you can't put in different spacers until one makes a leak go away then you have no chance of survival in life.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

Have you ever touched a Pre-99 Autococker? Honestly? An Automag has nothing on them.

So what you're saying is that we should make everything idiot proof so no one has to do anything. That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

This post is probably rude, offenive, and blatantly insulting. For that I apologize, but here it shall stay. Having a light turned on when you are used to the darkness is painful, but sometimes you just need to see where you are going. Think Plato.

[JRingold]

It is marketable. Look at Special Ops Paintball for example. Its not as flashy as speedball, not as easy to put on tv and doesn't sell as many paintballs. That doesn't mean it isn't a huge market.

Yes, many woodsballers are looking to spend less money. But have you seen the equipment they buy? Look at the
A5 mods for example. Most of the things they buy for their markers don't even neccesarily improve thier performance; stocks, scopes, etc. But, I suppose with all the money saved on paint and few high end markers being marketed to them they have to spend all that money on something.

Scenario and Woods ballers spend less money on paint??? I must have missed a memo somewhere because I and the people who play scenario and woods ball with me seem to shoot a lot of paint. I'm bringing 5 cases with me on Sunday and I'm planning to buy at least one more when I get out to the field.

Oh yeah, just because we play in the woods doesn't mean we don't buy high end markers. I don't play speedball unless I'm forced into playing it during open play, but I own two X-Mags. And an RT-Pro ULE and a Phantom.

[Glickman]

So what you're saying is that we should make everything idiot proof so no one has to do anything. That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

This post is probably rude, offenive, and blatantly insulting. For that I apologize, but here it shall stay. Having a light turned on when you are used to the darkness is painful, but sometimes you just need to see where you are going. Think Plato.

but what YOU are saying that manufactureres shouldn't put out the best quality and proofing, so the 13 year old has to learn how a soleniod works?


what about a car? can you say the same thing about a car? personally, i know how a paintball gun works, nearly all of them, but my car, all i want to know is that it runs. the same is the answer i get from many people when i help them on the computer as well. they dont have to know ram works, they use it all the time, but that doesnt mean they have to know how it works persay, but the basics are always useful. (atleast thats my feelings)

so, you think this is a good idea because its smart business? or just because your condensending feelings towards younger paintballers?


thank you for your "enlightend" business ethics, but theres is only one thing you can count on in business, and thats human stupidity. you find something noone can screw-up, congradulations, your a millionaire.

[Duzzy]

but what YOU are saying that manufactureres shouldn't put out the best quality and proofing, so the 13 year old has to learn how a soleniod works?

Well, when you find someone who is perfect and can make the perfect paintball marker then I don't think we will have an issue with QC. Until then, it wouldn't be a bad idea to understand how a solenoid works.

You know what, if he had mentioned a 'noid I probably wouldn't have said anything. I can understand not knowing how that works. But saying that a part is too high maintenance because you have to deal with O-rings, shims, and spacers in my mind is asinine. Epecially when the product that needs to be "redesigned" is not only very well designed, but very low maintenance all things considered. Especially when you consider what it can do and what it is made out of.

I mean, is that reasonable to you? Saying something is poorly designed because it isn't perfect?



what about a car? can you say the same thing about a car? personally, i know how a paintball gun works, nearly all of them, but my car, all i want to know is that it runs. the same is the answer i get from many people when i help them on the computer as well. they dont have to know ram works, they use it all the time, but that doesnt mean they have to know how it works persay, but the basics are always useful. (atleast thats my feelings)

Can you change the car oil? Can you use the help feature on a computer? I know this will sound stupid but you can have something that requires upkeep and still be quality. I know next to nothing about cars, and I know basically nothing about computers, but I am still willing to look in manuals, call up companies, and when I don't have the right equipment I take it into a shop rather than risk breaking something I don't have the tools to fix. Same with paintball markers.

so, you think this is a good idea because its smart business? or just because your condensending feelings towards younger paintballers?

Not only is this based on absolutely nothing, it is a pretty pathetic comment. Because I think that people should be willing to maintain the things they own, or know how to I hate younger players. Yep, that's a logical conclusion. And because I think younger kids should learn to value expensive gear and accept responsibility for it I hate them. That isn't a stretch either. Seriously... That is just a stupid remark...

You tell me that people will learn how to value their stuff if they can toss it any which way and not have something happen to it. Please do, because I don't think it will ever happen. Are they going to learn how to take care of a pet if it is automatically fed for them? And walked? Learning never hurt anyone and complaining about it doesn't help.

thank you for your "enlightend" business ethics, but theres is only one thing you can count on in business, and thats human stupidity. you find something noone can screw-up, congradulations, your a millionaire.

Alright, I found something that no one can screw up. Shedding dead skin cells. Now where is my million?

In all honesty, personal attacks don't make for intelligent conversation. Have a nice day.

*Edit*

I decided to make one thing a bit more clear by putting it in red...

[Glickman]

That sounds like a great way to get all the little kiddies to learn how to take care of their equipment. And to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs....

"all the little kiddies"

"and to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs."

condensending.

not a personal attack, just merely stating that your suggestion to me does not seem like a sound business practice, but as if it had another purpose behind it.


this is a little off topic, so lets just end it here anyway.




as far as saving the mag, only a few, select people can REALLY make a difference, and at this present time, i dont see any actions taken. (maybe theyll make me bite my tounge.... hopefully... )

[SCpoloRicker]

RoWR!

*pokes people with stick*

[Target Practice]

RoWR!

*pokes people with stick*

Aaaaawwwww yeah, baby.

You know, I'd hate to stifle the immense intellectual brouhaha in here, but hey. I think one of the main "problems" with the latest generation of Mags is that, generally, they are not a take-out-of-the-box-and-play marker. Think of someone that's never played before, who buys a Paradigm or an RTP from airgun.com, or a similar gun (God forbid it's used). Someone that has not the slightest idea or theory behind the marker. Will they be able to set it up? Most likely, no, they won't. They fudge and fiddle with it, get frustrated, sell it, and buy an Ion or a Timmy.

Why? Because it's easier to do that.

Fake Edit: Also, please, please stop with the "OMG WE NEED A LOW PRESURE MAG VALV". We've been over this.

[nuclear zombie]

automags......Nothing.

AGD has to make something new , not another automag. The design itself will have to be allowed to evolve and branch out into a completely new functionality of paintball gun. If there ever was a company to build a new concept marker and implement it, it could only come from AGD. (this assumption is based on the idea that they still do alot of physical research like they used to .)

[Duzzy]

"all the little kiddies"

Maybe in your mind that was condescending, however, in my mind it isn't. Now if I had said, "all the litte PBN Agg kiddies that would have been. Apparently we have different definitions and I will leave it at that.

"and to value money and how much paintball stuff really costs."

How is this condescending? Paintball stuff is exspensive. And I have personally witnessed people throwing a thousand of dollars worth of equipment because they got bunkered. I could buy a used car with the price of their gear new and they don't seem to care. Forget condescending, it's the truth where I'm at.

condensending.

not a personal attack, just merely stating that your suggestion to me does not seem like a sound business practice, but as if it had another purpose behind it.

It had nothing to do with business. He came across as extremely lazy and that irked me for whatever reason last night. So I sent off a reply that I knew was probably not going to be very nice. Hence the apology in my first post.

this is a little off topic, so lets just end it here anyway.

Consider it ended.


as far as saving the mag, only a few, select people can REALLY make a difference, and at this present time, i dont see any actions taken. (maybe theyll make me bite my tounge.... hopefully... )

Why does AGD have to make something new? How long has the valve system in every stacked tube blowback been around? No one says it needs to be re-done... The only thing that I think has really changed from Sypders to Intimidators is the way the valve is activated, but it isn't anything new.

What people need to do is realize that in order to maximize the technology they have to go against the grain. High pressure is what the Automag wants, and it is what it works best on. I think AGD should come out with a tank and reg that is adjustable up to 2.5k for the E-mags of the world. Only God knows what somebody would end up doing and how badly someone would be hurt...

[Teamslayer76]

Glickman said that Kingman was for selling markers on "cosmetics" but they sell like hot cakes.
Isn't that what we want to "save AGD". What I get it if AGD went "mainstream" and became really popular you would hate it. You'd say they suck and call anyone who shot them noobs.
So messed up. I don't know what to say.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Duzzymatt-o

[r-unit]

Ryan (CoolHand), yes, *I* know about the new mag frame you are making, and so do other mag ownesr..but no offense meant, you don't have nearly the reputation that Planet Eclipse has, ESPECIALLY with the release of the ego...if planet eclipse were to take their time to make something for the 'mag, many people might say "if its worth their time, and if they made the ego and e2, which are both amazing, maybe this gun setup is amazing too". in my opinion, that right there would save mags.

DOES ANYBODY AGREE/SEE WHAT IM SAYING? i always get that feeling nobody understands what im getting at..

ie: If Planet Eclipse had made an eblade for the automag instead of the autococker, then I believe only a few people would have autocockers (like automags today) and tons of people would have automags (like autocockers today).

[CoolHand]

Ryan (CoolHand), yes, *I* know about the new mag frame you are making, and so do other mag ownesr..but no offense meant, you don't have nearly the reputation that Planet Eclipse has, ESPECIALLY with the release of the ego...if planet eclipse were to take their time to make something for the 'mag, many people might say "if its worth their time, and if they made the ego and e2, which are both amazing, maybe this gun setup is amazing too". in my opinion, that right there would save mags.

DOES ANYBODY AGREE/SEE WHAT IM SAYING? i always get that feeling nobody understands what im getting at..

ie: If Planet Eclipse had made an eblade for the automag instead of the autococker, then I believe only a few people would have autocockers (like automags today) and tons of people would have automags (like autocockers today).

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but you aren't getting what I am saying.

PE doesn't care about the Mag, and they are never going to. If AGD up and disappeared tomorrow, the guys at PE likely wouldn't even notice. If they did, it would get a short pause, normally reserved for when one sees a dead puppy dog on the highway, then back to making Egos.

The big companies don't care about Mags, nor the people that shoot them. They decided long ago that you all weren't worth the trouble and expense of R&D. If I took my design to PE, they'd look at it, and then say "Cool", wad the paper up, toss it in the round file, and then bid me a good day. Even if they had the design handed to them, they still wouldn't do a frame for you guys, there just isn't enough interest.

Instead of lamenting the fact that PE doesn't like you, and that you are stuck with Logic Paintball's Eframe, you might ought to instead try to spread the word, and appreciate the fact that someone, hell anyone still cares enough about Mags to spend the time and money to bring you what you want.

I'm telling you right now, I got inundated with requests to make an EFrame that was fast, light, and reliable, and now that it is here, and nearly ready for release, I've got four, count 'em four (4) guys who are actually following through. That sucks, OK? This is why no one wants to build Mag parts.

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.