the one thing that could save automags.

[*ArKfEaR*]

nobody friggin wants to sell stuff for mags. I'm not debating this here because it's a dead horse

This statement basically sums up the reason why its dead.

[Duzzy]

Originally Posted by *ArKfEaR*
Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the text I have a problem with, as highlighted in my reply. I almost read all of what you said to me but I didn't. If you can't take the time to get my name right then I really can't say I have any faith in the quality of your reply.

You say that the entire Automag needs to be redesigned because it requires maintainence... Despite the fact that you say there is only minor work to be done, despite the fact that there is an entire section of a website designated to maintaining an Automag, a forum, a CD that comes with it, and an owners group that is usually very willing to help out. If someone can't figure the basics out with all these resources then I honestly have no faith in them, it is as simple as that. I say that is stupid because it is already an incredibly cool peice of engineering that is remarkably simple when you consider what it can do.

Guess what? I have no mechanical ability what so ever. It took me hours to learn how to set up my Automag properly when I got my first one. But I didn't complain about it being too hard to maintain, I took it as a learning experience and did the best I could. Are my Automags perfectly tuned? Far from, but they don't leak, and they work.

Appreciate the quality that you get and the lack of maintainence it takes to keep it. You want a perfect marker that never needs to be taken care of? If this is the case then Intimidators should be re-designed so that people don't have to lube the ram shaft. Or grease the o-rings. Spyders have cup seals that go bad, and so do most STBB markers... Paint occasionally breaks in the barrel...

End of story.

I've said my piece, I even apologized because I knew my first post wouldn't come across as friendly. And if after all that you still want to be mad and unhappy I cannot help you. For my part I am done. If you want to continue go ahead, but it will be a monologue to the forum.

CoolHand, good post.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Originally Posted by *ArKfEaR*
Shims, O rings, spacers, springs... people dont want to do this.

They need a permanent Level 10 (or whatever the next level may be) That doesnt EVER need to be adjusted or MINORLY retuned but it needs to be easy to acess. Although, once Level 10 is set its usually golden, but sometimes just taking your mag apart for cleaning and maintainence can throw it off.

Now this is just saying mechanically.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the text I have a problem with, as highlighted in my reply. I almost read all of what you said to me but I didn't. If you can't take the time to get my name right then I really can't say I have any faith in the quality of your reply.

You say that the entire Automag needs to be redesigned because it requires maintainence... Despite the fact that you say there is only minor work to be done, despite the fact that there is an entire section of a website designated to maintaining an Automag, a forum, a CD that comes with it, and an owners group that is usually very willing to help out. If someone can't figure the basics out with all these resources then I honestly have no faith in them, it is as simple as that. I say that is stupid because it is already an incredibly cool peice of engineering that is remarkably simple when you consider what it can do.

Guess what? I have no mechanical ability what so ever. It took me hours to learn how to set up my Automag properly when I got my first one. But I didn't complain about it being too hard to maintain, I took it as a learning experience and did the best I could. Are my Automags perfectly tuned? Far from, but they don't leak, and they work.

Appreciate the quality that you get and the lack of maintainence it takes to keep it. You want a perfect marker that never needs to be taken care of? If this is the case then Intimidators should be re-designed so that people don't have to lube the ram shaft. Or grease the o-rings. Spyders have cup seals that go bad, and so do most STBB markers... Paint occasionally breaks in the barrel...

End of story.

I've said my piece, I even apologized because I knew my first post wouldn't come across as friendly. And if after all that you still want to be mad and unhappy I cannot help you. For my part I am done. If you want to continue go ahead, but it will be a monologue to the forum.

CoolHand, good post.

Sorry about the typo, it wasnt because i didnt know how to spell your name (its just the u is next to the i ) and I believe I said it a second time with proper spelling btw.

Either or I totally agree with you on the learning aspect and very well get what your trying to get across. As well as definitley being right that no gun can be tuned to perfection including yours or mine. I'm just saying they took IDEAS that were basically perfect, but didn't implement them to the point where they could become perfect. Like basically doing a quick fix or in less than kinder words half-assed. Sure its gonna work, sure its gonna do what its suppose to but is everyone going to have the same results?

Thats all I was saying, I wasnt getting offensive in any of my posts or intentionally being unfriendly just I enjoy debating so when I get excited it just seems I'm taking an assertive stance.

Spyders - your completley right about them but then again we all know the prices of spyders and who the people are buying spyders. They basically can handle not having the best quality because most of there guns are under $200 to begin with anyway, so people dont expect as much.

Arkfear.


PS: Just for giggles, point yourself to the "The thing u dislike about mags..." thread by KillingSpree and scroll down and look what mag owners have to say about there own guns...

[Glickman]

This is the text I have a problem with, as highlighted in my reply. I almost read all of what you said to me but I didn't. If you can't take the time to get my name right then I really can't say I have any faith in the quality of your reply.

Personal attacks are an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. (you dont see me nit-picking your incorrect usage of "piece" instead of "peace" do you? )

Guess what? I have no mechanical ability what so ever. It took me hours to learn how to set up my Automag properly when I got my first one. But I didn't complain about it being too hard to maintain, I took it as a learning experience and did the best I could. Are my Automags perfectly tuned? Far from, but they don't leak, and they work.

You may not complain, but that doesnt mean on the whole it is sound business-wise. i never heard of a advertisement for a gun stating "mechanical ability required." (im not saying they do, but im taking it out of example of your text)

in the end, you could have the BEST product ever, but without sound business practices, theres no chance.

[Duzzy]

Personal attacks are an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. (you dont see me nit-picking your incorrect usage of "piece" instead of "peace" do you? )

If that's the worst I have done then it isn't much to complain about. Although you will have to point me in the right direction because I can't find where I would have used "peace" in any of my posts.

And the reason I took "Dizzy" as a personal attack is because people do that. They purposely mispronounce my nickname as "doosey" or "dizzy" or even "dummy" so I usually assume the worst. Not the best thing to do but it is something I admit that I do that is not good.

So I guess both of us have run out of money a few times in this thread eh?

You may not complain, but that doesnt mean on the whole it is sound business-wise. i never heard of a advertisement for a gun stating "mechanical ability required." (im not saying they do, but im taking it out of example of your text)

in the end, you could have the BEST product ever, but without sound business practices, theres no chance.

I have to ask why do you keep bringing up business? Honestly... Everytime you reply to me you bring it up and I don't ever mention it.

[CoolHand]

See, this is what I am talking about.

I'm not threatening anyone, I am citing an example (one that is absolutely pertinent to the question at hand).

You know what? It wasn't a smart business decision. I decided to do the frames as a favor the Mag'ers here on AO. Why the hell would I do that? Because I got my start here. I have since branched out into other markets, but the Mag community gave me my start. I'll always have a soft spot for the Mag, and the guys who defend them ruthlessly.

That's why I did it. Did it do any good? Not one damned bit.

What it shows me, is that people don't actually want a good EFrame, they want something to ***** about. Either that, or I really just missed the boat with this and everyone just doesn't want my version of it. Whatever the reason, the fact is that despite all the blowing, there isn't much of a market for the super Mag. It just isn't there. If I can't find enough customers to move 25 of the things, why in god's name would PE or anyone bother to build one? I mean really, you guys are proving my point for me.

No one outside of this forum cares about the Mag anymore. (at least as far as companies go). To think otherwise is to delude yourselves.

That it is my frame is irrelevant. The fact remains that the parts are there, and no one wants them, yet everyone constantly talks about the need for a good EFrame. Its all just hot air.

That, or everyone just hates me.

Its very easy to just set back and say "That was a bad decision, you suck at business." instead of realizing that BECAUSE its a bad decision, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. If you honestly think that I just screwed up, and PE will swoop in and make you a $200 EFrame, and magically save the Mag, you're living in a fantasy world.

I did what I did for the community, and it backfired. Your rubbing my face in it is not only in very poor taste, but rather short sighted, and smacks of spite. If you run me off, you are left with one Mag parts vendor, and that's never good for the market.

Go ahead and hoot at my folly, at actually trying to give you guys what you asked for. Remember how much fun you had raking me over, when you're back to only having parts in gloss black, and everyone's markers look alike again.

[Glickman]

I have to ask why do you keep bringing up business? Honestly... Everytime you reply to me you bring it up and I don't ever mention it.

this thread is on, "the one thing that could save automags."

to me, and others as you see, its a sound way of thinking of how to run a business. you comment on how you dont agree that companies need to make things "idiot proof," but i believe thats an important part of business ethics, which i believe is the only thing that can save the automag.

[Duzzy]

Hey a CoolHand, I don't think anyone wa directing anything at you. I could be wrong, but that isn't the impression I got.

I'm sorry that your frame didn't turn out, and to be honest I wouldn't mind owning one. But I can't justify it. Mainly because the DevilMag I just got probably won't sell for enough to buy one and I need to concentrate on college right now. If I could I would have you mount it on my X-mag body just so I could keep the interchangable feeds and the sexy look. But it isn't a reality for me at this time.

I think part of the problem with sales for you may be the wait and frustration associated with the Pnuematic Trigger Frames and the DevilMags. People don't want to wait, and from what I have seen they don't care about what happens, or what problems exist as long as they get their stuff on time. But with all the negative comments directed at GA Devil, and the disappointment and waiting surrounding the PnueFrame I can't say that I am surprised. That being said I apologize for the negativity and hope that you can at least regain the money spent getting it off the ground.

But like I said, I don't think anyone was personally going after you, and I hope you didn't take any of my comments to be directed towards you because they weren't.

*Edit*

Glickman-

My point is more along the lines that companies can't make anything idiot proof so expecting them to is foolish at best...

Sure it would be nice if you could run over a marker with a 10 ton truck but is it reasonable to expect a manufacturer to make it like that? Might be a bad example but it is late.

[Glickman]

Its very easy to just set back and say "That was a bad decision, you suck at business." instead of realizing that BECAUSE its a bad decision, NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT. If you honestly think that I just screwed up, and PE will swoop in and make you a $200 EFrame, and magically save the Mag, you're living in a fantasy world.

yea its easy to sit back and say that, but personally i dont think there is any company that will "swoop" in to save the mag. if you want to interpret that as me saying that its not worth "saving," go ahead, i guess in a sense thats what im saying. As i said above, i think the automag needs to be managed with business sense, but if theres no chance for that, then i dont believe theres anything that will "save" the mag.

I did what I did for the community, and it backfired. Your rubbing my face in it is not only in very poor taste, but rather short sighted, and smacks of spite. If you run me off, you are left with one Mag parts vendor, and that's never good for the market.

Go ahead and hoot at my folly, at actually trying to give you guys what you asked for. Remember how much fun you had raking me over, when you're back to only having parts in gloss black, and everyone's marke

i stated my belief, i did not "rub" anything in your face, nor will i apologize for your way of thinking, but do not mistake my critique for poor taste. I dont spite you, i did not ask for your product then to decide not to invest in it, and obviously noone here is interested in "running you off."

but everyone hates you right? because 1 or 2 people critiqued your business ethics, im sorry, ill try to refrain from posting my opinion on the internet anymore


-------------

My point is more along the lines that companies can't make anything idiot proof so expecting them to is foolish at best...
Sure it would be nice if you could run over a marker with a 10 ton truck but is it reasonable to expect a manufacturer to make it like that? Might be a bad example but it is late.

heh yes it is getting late. It is foolish to expect someone to make something "idiot proof," but i do believe in "idiot resistant" (i guess thats a better word) as being more beneficial to a product

[manike]

I think AO has always been one of the toughest places to get realistic input into the validity of an Automag related project.

I have no doubt that even if PE did make a frame for the mag it would have nowhere near the impact of the frame for the Autococker. The mag was on a decline in comparison to the autococker way before electronic frames were available for either.

The only thing that could save automags is a radical shake up, of the brand and company. I don't see that happening, and as much as I love mags, I fear it is too late.

[CoolHand]

I didn't want to go to PBN, because I did this for AO. No one else. Certainly not me. The profit margin on these is absolutely ridiculously small. I'd be happy just to break even, and get to see people enjoying these things.

...Even more so sending the idea to a company and possibly seeing if they want to buy it off you, They obviously are going to market it much better than you can.

Riiiiiight. Keep telling yourself that. The only way PE could take this idea and make it better would be to build them in a big enough volume to get the price down. Guess what? They couldn't sell them in that volume, they'd lose their asses too. Its not because I'm a small company, its because people don't want the product, or they don't want it bad enough to pay what it costs. They want super Mag performance, but at ION prices. It just ain't gonna happen folks.

Along with that is just obvious things, like MAKING SURE EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY WANTS WANT puts in deposit, therefore you can always make your money back on parts. The only other thing you can do is try to pump them out as quickly as possible to keep the consumer happy. Otherwise people start complaining ex. All the guys doing custom Turtle body work which they eventually drifted away because so many people said OH he took my money, he took too long blah blah blah.

Yeah, get a deposit for a project that is 17 weeks out. That would have went over well. Oh wait, I DID! I got four (4) people, out of the literally hundreds that emailed me, posted, and PM'ed to say they wanted one. Just look at the PnueMag thread. 500 some odd "I want it now!" votes, and I bet they sell less than a hundred of them, if they ever do them at all. Those guys at PTP know the score just like I do, but they have been crapped on by Mag'ers for so many years, that I doubt very seriously if they would take on a marginal project simply out of the good of their hearts. If I would have gotten a hundred preorders, and it actually took 17 weeks like I projected, I would have been called a thief, and all of you arm chair business execs would have been decrying my horrible business practices because I took money and didn't deliver a product in a timely fashion (never mind that I told them up front). Its a no win with you guys. I zig, you say I should have zagged, I zag, you say I should have zigged. Its really easy to second guess someone once its all over, its damned hard to make the call in the beginning. What all of this is teaching me, is to hell with sentiment. Screw all that loyalty crap. Its marginal? Screw it. Let someone else do it.Oh, thanks, you have just saved my business. You should seriously start a consulting company. I bet you could be a billionaire. There is not a big enough for that statement. Hell, even Mango's rolleyes barf smiley won't cut it.

I love paintball the game, I hate paintball the business. Why, you ask? Because of the customers. Teen aged industrialists every one. They all know exactly what I am doing wrong, and how to fix my problems, never mind the fact that they've never been in the same position, nor have they ever had their own money on the line. Hell, they're the same guys selling off markers for $600 (the very same ones they paid $1800 for three months before), because the new one is better . . . . . . . . somehow.

You got it all figured out do you? Then buy the equipment, and put me out of business.

Hell, I'll sell the whole shop here, right now. Go get your checkbook, I'll wait.

[CoolHand]

but everyone hates you right? because 1 or 2 people critiqued your business ethics, im sorry, ill try to refrain from posting my opinion on the internet anymore

I guess my sarcasm was lost on you. I should have used a smiley.

I don't think anyone hates me (or rather most don't). And I don't take criticism as a sign of such. I do think that you come off a tad pompous in the delivery of said critique though. If stating your opinion always makes you sound pompous (as in there isn't anything you can do about it), I guess that's the hazard of you speaking up. I make an *** of myself on a regular basis, welcome to the club.

There isn't anything wrong with my business ethics. Maybe I guide my business a bit too much by heart, or by what I want to do, but I don't have any problems with ethics. I'm not a thief, and I don't lie about what my stuff can do. Much past that, what more can you ask?

What I am trying to illustrate is not that no one likes me, or that I suck at business, or whatever, but rather that Mag'ers seem to be stuck in a cycle of crying "God we need this!" and then forgetting about it once its done.

Its like you guys (and PB'er in general) have a massive case of product ADD.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough Ritalin in the world to fix it.

[Duzzy]

I think they want the Automag to become a household name again. That is honestly all I think people want.

They want Automags to be able to "compete" in the hopes that more people will use them, recognize them, and in the end somehow magically AGD will rise from the ashes and become "the great company it once was".

Call me cynical, but I don't think most people wanted anything other than the return of the Automags status. I mean, everyone praises all the new products and innovations but how many of those people buy them?

I see it as, "Well I don't need that, and don't want to pay for it, but if it will make Automags come back I will praise it to the sky. Then not only will people know what my marker is, but they won't confuse it with a shocker, and everyone will want one."

[MadPSIence]

Ryan I officially salute you.. you made me realize something. It's not mags I like, it's people like you who do something special to make a gun, or part more valuable by putting your neck out to produce something awesome.

If you drop the mag thing I think you can still expect my business in the future.

[Beemer]

Some Good discussion Here and to many good quotes to list.

To keep it short I agree and disagree with ya all.

Hey CoolHand rock on and stay true, as you have, to yourself.

The only thing that could save automags is a radical shake up, of the brand and company. I don't see that happening, and as much as I love mags, I fear it is too late.

Or a radical shake up of the Industry and the Manufactuers that would affect AGD the least and or benefit. There is no fear

and in the end somehow magically AGD will rise from the ashes and become "the great company it once was".

It doesnt have to become and it isnt once was. It still IS. http://www.airgun.com/ The history speaks for itself doesnt it?


Peace Out

___________