the one thing that could save automags.

[Lohman446]

Coolhand has put it as only someone can from experience. Lets talk about mag upgrades

TK has had countless times when this board was like "oh oh we want we want" and then failed to buy - the roller trigger comes to mind

The Devilmag was started as a custom project, and the crap Chris has taken from people is not worth it (myself included in that people).

You can ask Coolhand if you don't get the idea of above.

Extreme Depot bodies...

The only ones who have had good luck with Automags have done so on a small inventory and small investment ( I ASSUME ) comparatively. I doubt anyone spends the money to R&D further on this... especially considering the reputation that TK has given afermarket people - being it better actually do something, you are nto recuping R&D based on marketing. IT will actually have to be better.

[Teamslayer76]

Sure, I understand what you are saying, but you aren't getting what I am saying.

PE doesn't care about the Mag, and they are never going to. If AGD up and disappeared tomorrow, the guys at PE likely wouldn't even notice. If they did, it would get a short pause, normally reserved for when one sees a dead puppy dog on the highway, then back to making Egos.

The big companies don't care about Mags, nor the people that shoot them. They decided long ago that you all weren't worth the trouble and expense of R&D. If I took my design to PE, they'd look at it, and then say "Cool", wad the paper up, toss it in the round file, and then bid me a good day. Even if they had the design handed to them, they still wouldn't do a frame for you guys, there just isn't enough interest.

Instead of lamenting the fact that PE doesn't like you, and that you are stuck with Logic Paintball's Eframe, you might ought to instead try to spread the word, and appreciate the fact that someone, hell anyone still cares enough about Mags to spend the time and money to bring you what you want.

I'm telling you right now, I got inundated with requests to make an EFrame that was fast, light, and reliable, and now that it is here, and nearly ready for release, I've got four, count 'em four (4) guys who are actually following through. That sucks, OK? This is why no one wants to build Mag parts.

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Amazing post! Coolhand I have the outmost respect for you right now. I know how it is. Even the comparison with you and Planet Eclipse is way out of here. They make quality parts by the 1,000's while you make ultra high quality hand made super parts like you said 25 at a time. It's a dieing breed If you ask me. It more Quantity over Quality.

[Glickman]

You guys are doing yourselves and the Mag in. You guys. By crying wolf for so long, and then to not act at all when the time comes, you've all pretty much spat in my face. I spent the better part of a year designing that thing, and I've got the better part of $5k into the project now (it will be closer to $11k when its all done though), all of which, for the time being at least, looks to be for naught.

If you don't support the guys who are taking the time to make Mag parts, then you deserve not to have the stuff you want. You deserve to have a second class marker, because you wanted brand prestige over functionality. Also, FYI, PE charged $425 for the E1 and the E2 when they were brand new, and they were making those by the thousands. You can't tell me that $450 is too much money for a part that is hand made in batches of 25.

I tell you one thing for sure, if I lose my *** on these EFrames, you can pretty much bet that they will be the last Mag stuff you see from me. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

we dont deserve new parts because we dont want to buy YOUR product?


"if I lose my *** on these EFrame" , " looks to be for naught." to me it doesnt sound like your so sure on your product nor consumer base. Its your investment, its your gamble.

if people on the internet, ask for a product, to me atleast, even 500 wouldnt persuade me to do anything. It may not be a good example, but look at pbn. alot of 3rd party people with offers "ill buy 1!!!!!!" but how often to they succeed?

i hope your just letting off steam, because to me, it sounds like your just threatening if YOUR product doesnt sell well, you wont be happy.



nothing personal to you, its just to me sounds like you went off on a limb in a risky investment with a unconfirmed consumer base, and are unsure about your products future

[mag88888]

Coolhand, i havn't read a post like that in a LONG time. it sure did wake me up. and its sure to wake up up other AO'ers as well. i dont know how to feel or what to say about that post. just puts me to tihnking about it for a while....

[MadPSIence]

we dont deserve new parts because we dont want to buy YOUR product?


"if I lose my *** on these EFrame" , " looks to be for naught." to me it doesnt sound like your so sure on your product nor consumer base. Its your investment, its your gamble.

if people on the internet, ask for a product, to me atleast, even 500 wouldnt persuade me to do anything. It may not be a good example, but look at pbn. alot of 3rd party people with offers "ill buy 1!!!!!!" but how often to they succeed?

i hope your just letting off steam, because to me, it sounds like your just threatening if YOUR product doesnt sell well, you wont be happy.



nothing personal to you, its just to me sounds like you went off on a limb in a risky investment with a unconfirmed consumer base, and are unsure about your products future

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

[nuclear zombie]

couldn't have said it better MadPSIence.

[Glickman]

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

ahh ignorance is bliss. "COUNTLESS" people on the internet. Whats all of these people's phone numbers? addresses? how many deposits did he get? how many preorders? this is not comming from a eco major, just some 16 year old who is pretending to be in his shoes.


Your complaining because people arent taking interest in a product, thats understandable, but blaming them for the "death" of automags because they dont buy something?


" It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! "

ahh ignorance is bliss, yes it is. its business, its life. its a gamble. he relyed on people over the internet, which could or could not have ended up profiting him.

its his choice to rely on a internet-based consumer base which is obviously unestablished as there are not many producers of a product such as the one he was offering.


check myself? you check the basics of thinking on the margin

[MadPSIence]

ahh ignorance is bliss. "COUNTLESS" people on the internet. Whats all of these people's phone numbers? addresses? how many deposits did he get? how many preorders? this is not comming from a eco major, just some 16 year old who is pretending to be in his shoes.


Your complaining because people arent taking interest in a product, thats understandable, but blaming them for the "death" of automags because they dont buy something?


" It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! "

ahh ignorance is bliss. its business, its life. its a gamble. he relyed on people over the internet, which could or could not have ended up profiting him.

Sorry but it IS the fault of AO - if you tell someone you want something, they make it, and you change your mind... it's YOUR fault if they say forget it and stop supporting the community.

MATH -

E-Frame = good, wanted by many
Logic = Makes the Eframe
Logic Making E-Frame + People copping out on buying after saying they would = Mad logic
Mad logic = Quits helping AO
Mad Logic also = No E-Frame
No E-Frame = opposite of first equation.
Opposite of the first equation being a BAD thing, it's cause being people copping out...

You figure it out.

[Glickman]

Sorry but it IS the fault of AO - if you tell someone you want something, they make it, and you change your mind... it's YOUR fault if they say forget it and stop supporting the community.

MATH -

E-Frame = good, wanted by many
Logic = Makes the Eframe
Logic Making E-Frame + People copping out on buying after saying they would = Mad logic
Mad logic = Quits helping AO
Mad Logic also = No E-Frame
No E-Frame = opposite of first equation.
Opposite of the first equation being a BAD thing, it's cause being people copping out...

You figure it out.

thats not math, thats thinking on the margin. the difference? math is precise. thinking on the margin, is just that, "thinking," guessing what will be sucessful.


answer me this, if a sole proprietorship is asked to make a product, who ends up with the liability if it goes down the hole?



this is the most intellectually stimulating conversation ive had here in a while

[MadPSIence]

thats not math, thats thinking on the margin. the difference? math is precise. thinking on the margin, is just that, "thinking," guessing what will be sucessful.


answer me this, if a sole proprietorship is asked to make a product, who ends up with the liability if it goes down the hole?



this is the most intellectually stimulating conversation ive had here in a while

The Proprietorship is responsible for the money lost.

The people asking for the product are responsible for the SERVICE lost.

Ryan isn't doing this to make money for himself, he's doing it primarily for US. His own fault for taking a risk if he doesn't sell the frames. OUR fault for screwing up the opportunity to own a great product such as the one he's making.

That should make more sense to you.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Okay seriously check yourself. He did PLENTY of research to make sure he was making a product that would sell. Countless people said they would buy one etc... 4 damned people (myself included) have actually came to honor that. What other damn research can he do? It's not Ryan's fault that everyone here cries about what they wish their mag had and then refuses to buy the part that he busts his *** to make!! I can just see it, AO is gonna cop out and then months down the road when Ryan's had it with all talk non-buyers... everyone on AO is going to whine and cry how they wish the mag had a good E-Frame.

AO folk, for people that are supposed to be mag lovers, sure do a good job of making sure the name dies out. Everyone here has the opportunity and ability to build a mag that I promise will perform with or even outperform a top level gun... without surpassing the price unless you want to get into fancy bodies and products that are for show rather than function.

Ryan, I'm sorry you have to put up with people that say one thing and do another. Frankly if people screw this up and continue to do so I'm with you. I'll be done with mags because too many people are making it suck to own one.

Ryan thanks for trying to breathe some air back into the windbag that used to be a supportive community.

[Glickman]

The Proprietorship is responsible for the money lost.

The people asking for the product are responsible for the SERVICE lost.

Ryan isn't doing this to make money for himself, he's doing it primarily for US. His own fault for taking a risk if he doesn't sell the frames. OUR fault for screwing up the opportunity to own a great product such as the one he's making.

That should make more sense to you.

your thinking made sense, that doesnt mean i agreed

but yes, i agree 100% with what you said above, and i never said he didnt have reason to be mad at those who offered to buy his product, my only comment was that i believed that more couldve been taken to surpress this problem (i dont think this problem could ever be avoided)

yet, if only 4 people had actually put a deposit, i think that might have given him a better idea of his dedicated consumer base.

but yea, in the end everyone looses, i just believe its much worse to have lost $5k then to have lost the chance to buy a product



i just agree with *ArKfEaR* that more steps couldve been taken to ensure the consumer base was worth investing in this product beforehand



anyways, good luck with the eframe. ill tell you this though, at $400 and 4 guarenteed buyers, thats better then ~95% of the guys that tried the same on this forum.

[MadPSIence]

It's not the peoples fault or the communities fault, its simply the fact that hes lying his trust soley on the people of a INTERNET PAINTBALL FORUM. Thats just bad judgement, never-the-less would be a simple business choice that almost any smart business man wouldnt make.

Now if you were to distribute on pbnation.com, along with going to PSP/NPPL events and getting some sort of representation/coverage you might have a much better chance of getting your name out.

Even more so sending the idea to a company and possibly seeing if they want to buy it off you. They obviously are going to market it much better than you can...

Along with that is just obvious things, like MAKING SURE EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY WANTS WANT puts in deposit, therefore you can always make your money back on parts. The only other thing you can do is try to pump them out as quick as possible to keep the consumer happy. Otherwise people start complaing Ex. All the guys doing custom Turtle body work which they eventually drifted away because so many people said OH he took my money, he took too long blah blah blah.

Finally make sure its something you can handle doing, if you can do it then dont try it.

the impossibilities of outsourcing or selling a mag frame to another company have been discussed elsewhere already.

[*ArKfEaR*]

the impossibilities of outsourcing or selling a mag frame to another company have been discussed elsewhere already.

1. Has it been done?
2. Who did it?
3. Is there a reason to them failing?
4. Was it a product that was wanted at the time?
5. Was it an electro kit (like an E-Blade) or was it just an idea or mech frame etc.






*and damn you quoted me before i could recheck my post and clean up lol

[MadPSIence]

1. Has it been done?
2. Who did it?
3. Is there a reason to them failing?
4. Was it a product that was wanted at the time?
5. Was it an electro kit (like an E-Blade) or was it just an idea or mech frame etc.






*and damn you quoted me before i could recheck my post and clean up lol

nobody friggin wants to sell stuff for mags. I'm not debating this here because it's a dead horse