Why has the 'Cocker survived, while the Mag suffers?

[ben-afficial]

cuz if theres one more thing we need...its a high powered kick to the face

[TheTramp]

It's even more embarising if you do it with a Sniper2 that's got no beaver tail.

[HateMachine]

I remember the first time I saw a cocker....

I was like what is all that complicated crap everywhere, microlines all over the place, and a piece of metal that fly's back a forth. And I realized this "autococker" contraption was too much for me with all the tuning and what not.

So I bought a mag.....

[Death of Rats]

I am going to agree with the back block comment. It just looks oh so cool whenever it is moving back and forth. The only other thing I like about the cocker more than my mag is that it is very easy to remove the bolt and swab out the whole gun if you get a horrible nasty break. Other than that the only reason I own three cockers and only 1 mag is the low resale value. AKA Jim can buy it cheap hehe.

I love the mag. I have only owned it for about a month now and it is my favorite marker. Not sure but it will be soon overshawdowed again by my obsessions with phantoms.

Oh forgot one other reason. I played with a mag one time when I was 15 or so. (about 6 years ago) and it chopped the bejjecus out of the paint. One truly bad experience and that scarred me for a long time.

[FSU_Paintball]

hypnotic back-block action...

I think there are several differences. The first is perceived gain. Remember how waaay back in the day it was a known fact that cockers were ALWAYS down, were ALWAYS hard to work on and you ALWAYS had to carefully maintain and retime them? Well, that's not the case any more. Sure, they're still on the more-*****y-end of the scale, but they are SO much better than they were back in the 90s.

Mags were reliable, cockers were nicer to shoot. That was a big argument for eleventy billion years running. Well, cockers got more reliable and people still believed that they were nicer to shoot. So, why stay with a mag?

I'm not saying that it's all fact, I'm just saying it's perceived gains. There may have been lots of arguments that cockers do not shoot superior to mags, but nobody ever said a mag shot nicer than a cocker. That's not a two-way street... LOTS of people claimed a cocker shot nicer than a mag.

Then there's the companies behind them. AGD is smaller and has less funds. WGP has been a powerhouse for a long time, even moreso now that they've merged with K2. Marketing can be everything in this sport and WGP has the means to exposure.

The E-mag and Xmag were both very expensive when they came out. Then Eclipse came out with this new Eblade thing... people were iffy on the racegun but the Eblade brought everything mainstream. And you could put it on any cocker, for $350. The E-mag and Xmag? Hovered around the $900-1300 mark. Sure, so your e-cocker might be less reliable and you'd spend a bundle to get it to shoot as nicely as those e/x-mags... but people don't realize that. They just see that they already have a $250 gun and can add a $350 frame to it and be blazing fast... it looks much better.

Perceived gains.

[Coralis]

I think the reason had to do with 5 things:

Better marketing by after market part makers and the lack of a real upgrade path for many years

The perception that mags were paint choppers until the the advent of the level 10

The lack of affordable compressed air systems until the last few years the mag is a different animal when shot on CO2 especially level 6 mags

The weight of mags until the last few years

The lack of an affordable electric solution

Just my opinion on the matter

[riooso]

I play woodsball in the northern part of California and from what I have seen recently the autococker is on its way out. There are more Mags than I have ever seen before and of course there is a lot of Shocker stuff, probably more than all the rest. There a lot of players that are buying Ions and they play with them for a while till they get a Mag in their hands. I have personally been to a couple of "Conversions" in the last month. From what I have seen the Cocker is dead and selling for dirt cheap.

Riooso

[FSU_Paintball]

In my area the cocker isn't doing so well, but the mag is doing far worse. It's all timmy, proto, shocker around here.

[11 Bravo]

I have been seeing more and more mags at scenario games. I dont see too many cockers. I think the mag is making a comeback in the woods.

[mcdkid]

I dont think Id call the Deadlywind Karta or Dallara kits a tube and bar stock. But thats just me

And Ive seen plenty of plain cocker bodies that are just as sleek as a 1984 volvo 240 as well

I like my Exile body just as much as my '93 940 Turbo. lol


Also most of what is said is true about AGD marketing and what not. Bassically its hard for them to sell a blind man a cane, but on the other hand, AGD would walk around and help that blind guy all he needed. They are good and smart people, but won't really hype up their products or spend extra R&D money to have some one play with their guns or make a ton of ads. I do my part to let people try my mags, but only seems to find about a few of them that ever buy one.

[Aslan]

My take

I just bought a cocker...got it cheap so it's probably broken...but we'll see. The only reason I bought it was it was being sold real cheap.

Well, I went online ot download the manual...there's like 100 different parts in the diagram. For those of you posting saying that you like the cocker because it's "easy to work on"...ummm...the Mag is the marker with the one valve that slides out the back and has virtually no moving parts. The cocker is the monsterous thing with 100 parts, half of which seem to be moving.

I don't know how long it will take me to figure this new machine out...I look forward to it...but I can't see why anyone would get one of these over a Mag when they're more expensive and 100 times more complicated to work on.

Hopefully it will be easier to maintain/work on than it looks.

[sbpyro]

My experience

Okay started with a 68 carbide in 93, a mag in 96, got a micromag in 2000 and a mini orracle in 2003. The reason I got the mini-orracle was it was available in Black and gold. But I've noticed that the mag was so much easier to maintain. However whenever the mini-orracle is out on the field it seems to make more of an impression on ppl. Especially when you are not hitting your self with the back block. The stores around me don't carry anything mag, heck the store I normally go to the owner is more than happy to give me some mag parts he has lying around in the back ( not that I'm complaining). However I've manage to turn a few heads with my pump mag with sixpack on it .

[Eclipse�.���`�]

My first gun was an autococker, which I used up until about a month ago when I got my mag. The cockers are good and all, but they are more trouble than they are worth. The reason I know so much about the guns now is because I was always fiddling with the cocker trying to make it work right! Yes, most fixes are easy, but its just so nice when I get to the park, gas up the gun, and it works. I have noticed that the cockers do shoot a little straiter at long range, but I still prefer my mag. Although they are open-bolt, mags shoot on par with cockers. Open bolt peformance sags when you get into low end guns such as the original m98 and guns that are wearing out. One of the reasons Cockers go on is because the guys with lots of money get cockers with eblades and stuff. The newbs want to be like the pros, so they spend the big bucks on cockers. Like one of my friends said at PBR however, "You have a 100 dollar gun but a 1 dollar game."

AGD Pride!

[Automaggot68]

My first gun was an autococker, which I used up until about a month ago when I got my mag. The cockers are good and all, but they are more trouble than they are worth. The reason I know so much about the guns now is because I was always fiddling with the cocker trying to make it work right! Yes, most fixes are easy, but its just so nice when I get to the park, gas up the gun, and it works. I have noticed that the cockers do shoot a little straiter at long range, but I still prefer my mag. Although they are open-bolt, mags shoot on par with cockers. Open bolt peformance sags when you get into low end guns such as the original m98 and guns that are wearing out. One of the reasons Cockers go on is because the guys with lots of money get cockers with eblades and stuff. The newbs want to be like the pros, so they spend the big bucks on cockers. Like one of my friends said at PBR however, "You have a 100 dollar gun but a 1 dollar game."

AGD Pride!

How does open bolt performence sag in a 98?
i've been to fields that STILL have their original 98 rentals that while looking like utter crap, still perform as the day they were bought.

[93civiccpe]

Hmm... why cockers have survived and mags are suffering... I guess I can jump into this conversation, seeing as how now I started playing mags & cockers and those are what I'm going to use from now on. I've played everything from tippmans to angels to dm4's to timmy's to vikings... etc. But I always come back to the original 2.. mags and cockers.

I think that both mags and cockers are excellent guns. I think if a person properly learns how to use a cocker and actually uses set screws to lock down everything after timing they would have no problem, just like it is really not that bad tuning lvl-10 or ult upgrades on a mag.

Being an engineer I appriciate the simplicity and uniqueness of each design. But as for why the cockers are still doing well and mags aren't, I think that started happening the day a genius retired.. and I'm referring to Tom Kaye. I think that after he left the world of AGD has just been on "pause" .. as if everyone is waiting for him to get inspired and jump back into business and create some more new & exciting products. I think that mags are standing the test of time... the ult trigger and lvl-10 bolts are examples of that. But unfortunatley I can take a custom mag out to the field and hear about 20 times from kids "hey, look at his ion". And when I tell them it's an automag they tell me that I'm confused and that mags are these ancient guns that aren't made anymore. Every time I have to let them read the AGD imprinted in the intelliframe and see that it is not a custom bodied ion. It's sad. I do believe it would be very easy for the right person to take over operations at AGD and start producing new automags which were lighter, and maybe more efficient. All it would take is a partnership with Logic to start throwing that electro-pneumatic ripper frame on and it would be the talk of the town. A karta body, a logic electro pneumatic frame... I think a lot of the paintball community would jump on it. As light and quick as they are already, I believe it would be received well.

But unfortunately the man behind AGD has left, and it seems that no one wants to jump back into this market. On the other hand, autocockers have continued their lines, and continue to produce brand new markers and keep them on shelves and sponsor teams to keep them in everyones eyes. You have to order a mag custom just to get it, but I can go into any proshop and see all the nightkast cockers, prostock cockers, karnis, black magics... and that's what sells markers and keeps a company in business. AGD is still holding onto it's "faithful few" who have always loved mags and want to see them around forever. They are like a cult classic, and I see them slowly fading away. I just someone gets in there and revives them before they are just an old memory. Nevertheless, I know they will never be forgotten. Their ingenuity in their designs, and uniqueness which set them apart. Be it as it may that the cocker vs. mag arguements have lasted forever, at least these 2 companies didn't copy each other's design. At least they did their engineering for themselves, and I do think that is honorable. But unfortunately the business is no longer just about reliable markers with the best technology.. it's about flashy looks and making money, and that's why we have the companies like Smart Parts in our sport who will last for a long time, until they start losing money and switch to a new sport and a new product. I think to Tom Kaye it meant more for him to have the best marker on the market than to make money.. everything he did was technology drive and that's a testiment to what type of person he is.