The PTP Choke.

[GT]

I have been giving this some thought latly. PTP, back in the day when they were benchmark, made a bunch of mag stuff. Durring the mags tenure as a popular marker PTP/Benchamrk made grip frames, fore grips, exp chambers, rails, site rails, bodies, tourney locks, etc. I would have thought that at a minnium we, at some point like 3 years ago, would have seen the madusa frame. You would think that a company with the resources, as ptp does, would have come out with some kind of aftermarket mag stuff. In all honesty we probally have 1/2 dozen guys on AO that do thier own prodcut line. I am not saying that its easy, however it has to be hella easier than what one guy can do.


So lets review the current state of affairs of PTP and thier "love" for the mag...

Not as of yet even tho it's basically ready to go.

I've recieved some emails from certain people (I won't say who) still personally concerned about the potential for a legal issues associated with a software upgrade that's 'non-AGD'.

I'm completely amazed that it's perfectly fine to mill the living crap out of a structural peice of the marker (rail,grip frame) or just hack off certain other parts (Body), add a completely aftermarket electronics package (you know what) or any number of other mods and these same people don't have a single problem with it. I'm now concerned what may come from this and am currently re-evaluating my stance on this particular upgrade.

Funny thing is, there doesn't seem to a single problem like this with any other type of marker out there and it's personally attached users, it's seems like it only happens here.

Anyway...

That's where I am right now. I really appologize to those who've waited this long but I need to look into a few things before I go any farther at this point.

Sorry.

Emag software..... DEAD

K, here's the deal:

Everyone says they want one, yadda yadda yadda so...

What we're talking about is a complete Pneumatic (Not electronic) grip frame upgrade for the Automag regardless of valve system it's based on. If you can bolt a Mag frame on it, your good to go.

There will be design pics up later but basically it's going to be a hybrid style frame meaning it will be half way in between .45 style and 90* Vertical. Best of both worlds kinda thing.It will come with everything you need to bolt it on and go and have additional options such as on/off ASAs and universal airports so you can use te ASA of your choice with little or no external hosing visable.

This will NOT be a drop in modification, we will not install it in your or any other existing frame and at this time this is the only style frame it will be offered on. What happens down the road I don't know so don't ask.

The details:

This thread is only to gauge serious interest. If it looks like there will be enough interest from serious people (we need 100-200) I will start a pre-order thread which will require non-refundable deposit (refundable only if we don't reach the minimum number of people) and then payment in full sometime there after.

Estimated ETA of 4-6 months after commencment

Estimate MSRP $299

Looks like the mag version of this frame is...... DEAD


The sad part of this commentary is that the "old guard" of AO would not have let these issues die so easily. Either make a porduct or don't, it doesnt matter to me. What does drive me into a shooting rampage is to use AO as means to increase ones "e-cool."


gt

p.s. go astros

[peewee]

As far as everyone knows at this time they are still planning on releasing the frame, I believe that one of the gals from PTP has joined AO & said as much. But with current production abilities they can only do so much. They had some contractual obligations with WGP etc. The point of this thread?

[CoolHand]

OK, normally I wouldn't just wade into the middle of something like this, but since Jay isn't around much to defend himself I'll have a go at it. (Plus, I'm just getting tired of seeing all these woe is me threads.)

You have two gripes:

1) The Emag software was brought up and then shelved.

AND

2) The pnue frame is taking a long time/may never come.

Let's take these one at a time.

1) Well, the quote you used to show that the EMag software is dead basically spells out why it had to die. How can you read that and then turn right around and ***** at Jay because it didn't happen? You pretty much know who killed that project, and they didn't work for PTP, nor was their name Jay.

2) PTP knows just as well as anyone else does that the project can't be done to meet your price expectations unless they make a whole crap load of them, AND sell them all. Regardless of how vocal the guys wanting this to happen are, they need to realize that there just aren't that many of them. Sure, there were 200+ "yes" votes on that poll, but I would be ridiculously surprised if more than 20% of them actually bought one at the projected price point. Cut that number in half at least if the final retail price is over the initial estimate. It just isn't profitable to build 500 of them, and then sell 30. And if you only build 30, they will cost $400 a pop. There really isn't a way to make them profitable right now, which is very likely why PTP is sitting on their hands. BUT, since they don't want to loose their collective asses on a dubious project, they are the bad guy who crushed poor DW with an SP'esce patent, and then did nothing with it. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So, if you've got to take a hosing, better that it be a PR black eye than a financial kick to jewel sack, if you catch my meaning.

There is every possibility that they may come back to the pneumag concept at some point, but you guys will have lost interest and it won't go anywhere. Demonizing the guys holding all the cards to the Mag upgrade of your dreams is not the most productive way to get what you want.

Either way, neither one of those things is Jay's fault. You sir (GT in this case), are stringing up the messenger as an easy way to vent your frustration. PTP thinks that you Mag guys aren't worth the trouble, and Jay went to the mats for you all. This is how you thank him.

No wonder he wanted to change professions (well, that and there is many orders of magnitude more money in real estate).

[Chronobreak]

after talking with jay severalt times as well..

he was basicly hired to do the prototype and give it to ptp, that is what we did.

its his job after all..,

but i agree were all very mad that this things probly isnt comong out,and as for me the $ i had waiting i alreayd spent it on other gear that is available now. so if ptp said tomm hey were mkaing them wanna spend $200~, i would say sorry too late. as im sure a few other people would.

300~ pneumags owuld easily sell if they were at $250 or less. i have no doubts on that.

but i must agreee the whole situation is frustrating and feels like were getting the run around.I know jay feels the same way but even if he wnated to there is nothing he can do.
it is his idea to do all the amg stuff after all and push it onto ptp such as the bolt idea,software, the pneumag..

HOWEVER on another sidenot...while we dont have the pneuframes yet..neither does anyone else (k2(,be)(tippmann?) etc..so....im not lost of hope yet but the wait time seems horrendous. i can only imagine how certain people waiting for certain products must feel now

[ZEROte]

if you want a medusa frame it is possible to get one. i remember asking for one and being told that if i want one you can send them an email on how to get one.

and pretty much everyone else beat me to commenting on the other things so im just going to go out by saying lets just hope that ptp gives us what we sorta want but cant afford.

[RRfireblade]

Well....

All I can say is this.... I am just one person amongs a sea of people above me. Unfortunately , I often end up being the only voice that gets heard by the public....it didn't used to be like that as I never wanted to be that person and I like it far less now....trust me.


I do development and design work for more than a few people and companies...PTP just being the one I was/am most recently on full time salary for, however....I am not the person who deciedes what gets built by who and when.You all think it's frustrating not getting what you want but imagine, for just one second, you not getting or seeing things you spend time designing , developing , testing , etc yourself....I'm talking like not ever seeing the light of day and you know in your heart it would be a great product. Usually it's for some reason like " We don't have budget for that right now (but we apparently do for stuff that's not selling as well as this product would) " or "We don't have machine time to fit that in (but we apparently do for stuff that isn't bringing in as big money as this product would) " The bottom line is those who own thier own business' make the choices they think are right at the time for them. It's very easy after the fact to determine if it's the right choice...not so easy in advance. Trust me, I wouldn't want to be the person that makes those decisions either.

As for AGD related stuff , it's hard to justify support for a company who currently has thier head in the sand and is hoping that when it pulls it's head out, the world will magically come back to thier idea of what the industry 'should' be...the current president would rather dig dirt and look at the stars while the second in charge is primarily concerned with nickel and diming dusty parts left over from the 90's. It's pretty hard to find any desire to take a risk on that kind of commitment to the future.

The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...would also not last a single day in this business if thier whole income depended on Mag sales. The number of 'custom' built and sold Mags EVER sold by all AO dealers combined say in the last year or probably the last few years , wouldn't satisfy the requirements a typical large manufactuer (WGP for instance) would need to see in a single month alone to continue to support the line.

Anyway....got a little off track there.

In regards to PTP , they are doing things they think are right for themselves...some of things I may not agree with...some of thier direction I may not have taken myself but...

In regards to PTP's support for the Mag , it has always been directly related to the support they have recieved from AGD and from the Mag buying public. The sad truth is that the Mag as a whole has been and is basically all but dead. It is no longer a viable product and has not been for quite some time. Its existstance is based solely on grass roots word of mouth and this paintball forum (without which none of the other smaller forum spin offs would have ever seen the the light of day).

Mag owners need to think of it in terms of something like old cars....you all shoot a relic like a 64 dodge. It's primary support is going to come from other owners and users , classifieds and swap meets and a handfull of aftermarket parts makers biulding parts in thier garage or as a sideline to thier regular sources of income. Simple fact. Mags aren't coming back...Mags won't ever be the 'in' thing and Mags well never be mainstream ever again.

Don't waste your energy on what you 'wish' would happen. You want to be suportive of the Mag? Have an active say in their direction? Take $200,000 to $500,000 of your own money and invest it in AGD and then you'll likely see something out of them you would like to see. Until then your time would be better spent wishing it's won't rain next time youi plan to be outside. That's about as effective as demanding your dreams be granted here.

IMO.

And sorry if I sound harsh or mean...I'm not intending to be , honest...I think I'm just 'over' the paintball business overall and may have a tinted view this morning.

[warbeak2099]

Here's an example with cars that goes in the other direction.

The original Pontiac GTO was an amazing car. Probably one of the best American cars ever made. It was put out of production in the 70's what with the oil crisis and was only owned by collectors and enthusiasts for a while. Well, last year, GM came out with the new GTO. It's a dirty peice of horse manure, but it came back with a new facelift. Just because they did a shoddy job doesn't mean AGD would also. Not all products just dissapear forever. They can either come back as a peice of tin, disappear, or come back in a really well designed "new" form. Mags have the potential to do the latter, it's just up to AGD.

[CoolHand]

Actually, what the GTO did is come back just like the Shocker did.

Brand new product, same old name plates.

The car companies have been doing that for years. Hell, I think GM only has about 25 car names that they just continuously cycle through. Which is fine, brand recognition is something they kill for, so it only makes sense to stick with what people already know.

The problem is, people already "know" that Mags suck, they're heavy, get 5 shots per fill, chop, are ugly, etc.

I'm not really sure if AGD could have a triumphant comeback with the name AutoMag at all.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=RRfireblade]

As for AGD related stuff , it's hard to justify support for a company who currently has thier head in the sand and is hoping that when it pulls it's head out, the world will magically come back to thier idea of what the industry 'should' be...the current president would rather dig dirt and look at the stars while the second in charge is primarily concerned with nickel and diming dusty parts left over from the 90's. It's pretty hard to find any desire to take a risk on that kind of commitment to the future. QUOTE]





Dont take this wrong because I do love Automags, I own 3 and think that thay are on par with most any marker out there. But most of AGD's woes can be blamed on AGD management. I could be wrong, they could be making a fortune, but I doubt it. AGD has a great product with the lvl10 and Xvalve but if they dont do anything to improve the platforms that it sits in they are going to be irrelevent. I dont think it would take much to revamp there existing products and make them more cosmetically appealing. And they could do well in the scenario and woodsball area. It would take more to get back into speedball however. Especially since they have quit developing an Emag. Why the hell cant they make an add on egrip like the one for A5s. Sure it would take money and I am sure that if they had faith in AGD they could come up with the money, But if AGD does not have faith in itself there is not much hope. Maybe they should bring someone in that can breath life into the company.

Now go ahead and jump all over me.

[11 Bravo]

Maybe Coolhand and RRfireblade can take over and run AGD. Of course you could include
Deadly wind also.

Dont wake me up.....I am having a nice dream...

[warbeak2099]

The problem is that AGD's marketing was run by an engineer for so long, TK. Sure the guy is a crack scientist and can engineer some great stuff, but he just didn't market it right. He did fine with technology, but not with flare. He began the "stick your head in the sand" technique that Dav Z is still doing. Does Dave even post on here????

[Alpha]

The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...

Why does the ptpneuframe have to be a compeltely new design then? I really dont think Rogue and CooHand take Intelliframes, grind off some stuff and reanno them and make them into Chimeras and Logic Frames...

Team up with Rogue, and get a contract with him to put the pneumatics inside Chimeras. Home modders use the Chimera for our home made pneumags all the time. They have so much damn room in them. Logic Frames are pretty spacious too!

Its really a simple design.. A switch, and a ram. Granted exhaust valves help the cycle rates of the ram, LPR's help tune down the trigger pull, and theres always the need/want to have no external hoses (buy AGD botomlines and tap the top for 1/8" extension to the frame). Use existing parts, like I and many others have done. Talk to clippard minimatics.

My point is, if you cant fabricate everything yourself, buy all the existing parts and make it modular like that. Thats even better because when something dies, its that much easier to repair.

So what if your not going to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off it. If your not going to make big money off it, fine. Then let the little guys who dont do it for the money make their pneumags. They obviously cant produce hundreds like you cant, so its not like their taking business away.

I dont mean to be rude either, but I'll go ahead and say it:

Do it or dont.

If its the former, excellent. You'll make a lot of maggers happy. And perhaps you wont get the million dollar profits, but you CAN make a profit out of it. It wont hurt.

If the latter, then fine. You did your best, and proved that you can develop a far supereor 3-way. Let Deadlywind at it. You said its not fair that you dont get the money for patents you worked so hard for. Understandable. I agree with you. But dont be an *** and pull the whole 'If I go down your going with me' deal. Bad ethics IMHO.

At least try to get ptp to do/say something. I know for a fact they are losing customers over this, and will continue to.

When I say you in my thread, I am referring to PTP, not you jay.. I understand and respect that your just the PR hand in AO and I'm sure as r&d, you dont get absolute power in acting or sitting on the patent.

[Recon by Fire]

I won't knock anyone for their efforts in the support of Automags. If a private label company makes any aftermarket products for your brand of choice, be happy. Nothing says they have to at all. It can be disappointing to get a sneak peek at something and then find it will never see the light of day.

Aside from all of this, I cannot say I really comprehend why the new software versions for E/X-mags have never been released by AGD or others. Issues with full-auto, safety..blah,blah, blah..... there are tons of companies producing ramping, cheating, full auto boards for other markers. So I don't see how it would be any different.

Maybe the new Predator boards will someday be available, maybe I will get one. But honestly 3.2 with semi-auto works for me. The only feature I would care for is full-auto for scenario/private games.

Paintball makes me wish I was a machinist and electronic nerd, LOL

[Nutsnyomowf]

I think if AGD had followed what PTP was doing along time ago they would still had a fighting chance. The 1st mag I fell in love with was made by PTP.They made the mag more simple then what it already was.

[WARPED1]

Theres very little market for aftermarket mag parts. Little demand equals little money, little money equals a no go on mag projects. The only real market is here on AO and a few "old timers" who don't play enough to soend over $500 on a marker setup to compete in todays game. The Eguns are even popping up all over in woodsball. The last 24 hour scenario I attended had a crapload of Eguns and pumps and a few mags.
This is no bash on mags, so the mod who always tells me I said mags suck, and "you have no rights here"(you know who you are) calm down, because they don't suck, they're just not the best gun anymore. I remember when the tourney world was played in the woods and 2 mech markers dominated the world. 'Cockers and MAGS!