The PTP Choke.

[VFX_Fenix]

Well, I'll QFT Jay, and add.

Guys, wake-up, join the rest of the paintball community at large, the Automag is about as alive as the Ford Pinto. AGD blew it, simple as that, they sat on their laurals for so long that by the time they realised they had a problem they might as well have closed the doors and called it a career. Seriously, the Automag community at large is so small it's barely even worth noticing to anyone outside of it. The Automag is an archaic gun in the grand scheme of modern paintball guns (The Autococker is too but they didn't get reputation for being blenders) and its amazing (to me) that AGD even is still around.

Those of us who expect one day for AGD to rise to at least "common knowledge" status or even approach "top of the pile" status need a serious reality check. For two reasons, if absolutely no others; First AGD hasn't produced a new gun in 10 years, easily, no question and second, price. For what you get, a mechanical gun, for the price, $450+, you're paying a lot for not that much of a gun. Even the greenest kid with her first slave-wage job knows something of cost vs. benefits and you can get a lot more bang for your buck if you go elsewhere.

It isn't about competing, the competition's already happend. No matter how you stack the chips the Automag loses. The valve's fast, other guns are easier to shoot fast. Level X doesn't chop paint, most guns come with an ACE stock and won't chop either. Automags are easy to maintain, name a single gun that requires more than just whiping down the bolt, passing a swab through the reciever, and putting oil through the ASA as regular maintinance that isn't a blowback semi. Automags never break, neither does any other gun that's owned by someone with half a brain or someone who knows better than to continually tinker with it. Spyders/Ions/Angels/Autocockers are always breaking, strange how such "flakey" guns haven't given issue to me. If anything the only ongoing problems I've had with any guns I've owned were related to either my neglegence/incompitence/inexperience or I bought them used and they basically came that way. I've broken my guns before, and it's always been because I've done something that I either didn't know better about or forgot/neglected to consider. I have yet to have a gun which has been entirely in my ownership go down for an inexplicable reason, or a reason period that I couldn't track back to something I did.

PTP isn't the bad guy, DW isn't the bad guy, SP isn't even the bad guy, nor are any other companies that are/were around, this all lands squarely on AGD, because in the end, AGD is it's own worst enemy. No use looking for a scape goat, just owning up and dealing with it.

Does any of it change that the Mag is a gun worthy of the name? No, but everyone needs to realise that AGD's community is tiny and the voice it carries is even smaller.

[rabidchihauhau]

Don't completely blame AGD or Tom either.

In many respects, Tom is a victim of the 'industry' like so many others who are no longer really in it.

Tom wanted to do things "the right way". He gave up many opportunities for taking AGD big time - gaining money AND influence - for the sake of trying to remain the 'good' guy. There are thousands of people who tilt at windmills in the name of a good cause. The only ones who get any real recognition are the ones who knock over the windmill - and never the ones who try and try and try until it does them in.

Tom fought the increase in firepower. Tom fought the encroachment of the 'gangsta' lifestyle into tournament ball. Tom, over the years, lent money and support to others who he felt were travelling in the same direction he was trying to go.

The 'marginilizing' of the 'mag was due, in large part, to politics, not to bad business decisions.

***

Those who presume to know what goes on behind the scenes at PTP and/or AGD ought to just keep their yaps shut. 'One of the gals' from PTP did not go to AGD. (There's no gals available to go anywhere.) PTP made most of their decisions regarding products for mags based on a licensing arrangment with AGD; PTP NEVER went anywhere with a product without obtaining an ok from Tom. Quite frequently, PTP worked with AGD to bring a product to market and then shared that product with AGD. No because AGD had to, but because PTP was trying to 'do business the right way'. It killed us watching companies who had no relationship with AGD bring CRAP to market, get embraced by the mag loving world, make their bucks and then disappear. Guess where half the non-workers with the crappy aftermarket, no-specs BS parts ended up getting worked on - for free? PTP.

***

I'd be very happy if everyone who hasn't been running a paintball company since at least 1990 just stfu - you can't possibly know enough to comment appropriately, you can't have any appreciation for the things that were going on behind the scenes, and trying to analyze it from afar is just going to look silly.

[Lohman446]

Tom has a privately owned company that holds several patents that likely hinder what anyone does with the products that company produced.

We are all forgetting something - that company is privately owned. This is not a publically traded corporation that a board of directors or the investors are going to have TK's head if he doesn't go for the largest profit he can. The man is in a place in life where he can afford (I assume) to do what he wants to do and does it. He is at a place where he has evaluated and accepted his current risk to reward ratio as far as product liability and seems uncomfortable taking on more risk, even if it involves more reward. Well I am certain, from his own words, he would like to see some things for that company he does not seem to aggressively pursue it, or take steps that would cause him more risk.

The question is, if you were in a position in life that you were doing what you loved would you risk it for paintball players as a whole? The paintball market sucks, in general, about what they expect, and what they return - ask one of the large manufacturers who also makes things for motocross what customer tends to be less demanding and politer to them. I'm sorry, but those who do things for the love of the game as a whole are being replaced by those who do things because it is a smart business move. A lot of you wanted big business, and big paintball. Did you honestly expect it would be the same old game?

One can easily see where TK does not push the issue. If his interest has wained from paintball to something else, he may not want to risk anything for the sport that is not at all like the sport he started out risking everything for. Perhaps he keeps AGD for reasons we do not know, perhaps he intends to come back at some point and do something for paintball. I don't disagree with a wait and see attitude, if thats what TK wants. As has been stated, unless I am willing to make a substantial investment - and even then likely work within TKs rules, it really doesn't matter what I think of what AGD is doing.

[slade]

If the latter, then fine. You did your best, and proved that you can develop a far supereor 3-way. Let Deadlywind at it. You said its not fair that you dont get the money for patents you worked so hard for. Understandable. I agree with you. But dont be an *** and pull the whole 'If I go down your going with me' deal. Bad ethics IMHO.

...or, why not licence the pneuframe to DW? say they can produce it if you get a percentage of the profits. if they do produce it, you get money off of your patent without doing much... if not, no loss.

[11 Bravo]

The title of this thread should have been "The AGD Choke"

And to those that say we dont have a right to complain about the route that AGD has taken.
Sure we do. AGD asked for our support and to spend money on there products, and we did.
Complaining about AGD is no different then complaining about your local pro sports team. I am sure you do that, and I am sure we all have more invested in AGD than we do in the sports team.

[11 Bravo]

I would also like to say that a wait and see attitude is fine for a little while, but if they take too long AGD will be a memory of the good ole days. And we will be stuck with a bunch of large paper weights.
It wouldnt take a lot of effort to come up with an inexpensive, fast trigger frame that can compete. They already have everything else that they need: great valve, bolt, and ule body.

Why can Kingman and Tippmann have eframes but AGD cant. And dont tell me that its because someone picked on AGD but they didnt pick on Kingman or Tippmann, thats BS.

[Maghog]

But as long as there are parts kits for the upkeep, why will they become paperweights? What I don't understand is this constant recurring statement that AGD isn't keeping up with the times, or that they haven't brought out a new gun in ten years. The cocker is still the cocker after all these years isn't it?
The mag was and still is an incredible design. It was AHEAD of its time when it came out, and now others are just catching up. The support (or lack there of) it received over the years is what ruined it. The myth that mags chop is just that, a myth, but it stuck and it turned people away. This rumor was maliciously spread by store owners who wanted to sell cocker parts. It's just not true. If a mag is set up properly(mine is still without level 10)it doesn't chop any more than a cocker does. A knowledgable airsmith can attest to that just like he can show you how a well timed cocker can sing.
The advertising shortcomings of AGD may be a factor in their deteriorated image, but the fact remains that the mag's construction is the best there is, and by upgrading the concept with level 10,RT, and ULE, it became even better.
These days the name is what counts, and AGD's name has long been tarnished. It's very hard to rid yourself of a bad reputation, even if you have a good product. So if all AGD is left with is a loyal following of fans, then so be it. We have to accept that. Like I said, as long as I can keep fresh o-rings and bolts in my mag, I see no reason to put it on a stack of paper.
Dan@Triggernomics

[BigEvil]

Food for thought.... maybe mags were made TOO well. 10 years later, and they still work like the day you bought it. Why buy something new?

[RRfireblade]

For Alpha,

Just to stay short and sweet....

The P Frame effectively has to be an all new frame, the cost to re-mill and re-finsh existing frames not the mention that demensions and other factors may not be ideal would far out way the cost of manufacturing a new frame from scratch. That catch is in the numbers required to start production. And this is not to be condisending but , I realise you may not understand the difference in costs between dremeling something in your garage and setting up a CNC mill to do a one off or 'one at a time' custom job.

In additiion, and I suppose if you haven't shot a real Pnuemag this might also be hard to understand but....you simply can't use all off the shelf parts. MY version of the frame is leagues beyond the DIY'ers in terms of performance. You just don't get that with stock switches no matter where you buying them from...it's just that simple.

Look at this vid...this it at or beyond electro performance. The DIYer's aren't even in the ballpark of this performance...with all do respect.

Trigger Sesitivity

And the last thing I'll say on the subject is:

DW had/has the opportinuty to team up on this project and declined. (I don't know what the specifics were) and to my knowledge AGD has had zero interest in pursuing a PTP/AGD co-op effort up till now. So that's where we are today.

Jay.

[WARPED1]

The cocker is still the cocker after all these years isn't it?

No. They always change the milling(not really a big deal) They turned it into an Egun. They recently removed the cocking rod, externaly anyway. True, no major changes, but they changed with the times. When people started hating on slider frames, WGP introduced the hinge frame.
There's something some of the AO faithful refuse to grasp. That paintball is an industry, a business. All companies care about is the bottom line. If you listen to everything your customers say, your business will fail.

Food for thought.... maybe mags were made TOO well. 10 years later, and they still work like the day you bought it. Why buy something new?

15 years. The mag came out in 1990. $450+ for what we now call a classic mag.

[Maghog]

[QUOTE=WARPED1]They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

[WARPED1]

[QUOTE=Maghog]

They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

True that! Remember, I'm not slamming mags at all. But AGD did too little too late.

[slade]

They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

an ugly, heavy out of production e-frame with a huge battery pack? and HES.

[Maghog]

And I would argue that AGD did more than enough to make an amazing piece of equipment right from the start. There was never any lack of ingenuity on their part. If so, then I missed something.
The subject here is PTP abandoning AGD though, and that is where it should stay. If I'm correct, PTP is the one that had the ORIGINAL design for the E-Mag, so it should suffice to say that they've given the mag design plenty of interest. PTP needs to take care of themselves, and if it's not economically feasable to supply a couple hundred mag fanatics with a pneu frame, then it's our loss. But it would be unfair for us to be mad at them for it.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=Maghog]

They turned it into an Egun.

So what is the E-mag?

Its a good Eframe but the software is out dated and they wont upgrade it and they complain when someone does.
The Predator board will show how good it is, but since AGD is not pushing Emags anymore it wont do much for AGDs rep. People will just say wow AGD should have done that and maybe they would have sold more Emags.