The PTP Choke.

[11 Bravo]

I am not complaining about Automags, I love them and am getting more. I am complaining about the company. No- mags are not outdated but if they dont keep improving them and promoting them they will be.

Emags are not Ugly whoever said that. They are my favorite mag.

[WARPED1]

No complaints herte either. Except the Emag is ugly, only because of the battery pack. The body you can take care of, slugs DW etc. What ever happened to the slug? One of the best ideas AGD had, and its just *POOF* gone!

[slade]

The body you can take care of, slugs DW etc. What ever happened to the slug? One of the best ideas AGD had, and its just *POOF* gone!

my guess is, slugs just didnt sell well. not many people would mill or do anything to them.

[mobsterboy]

HOLY CRAP JAY!!!! pst...how much to.uhh. sell me a frame like that...strictly on the DL of course. Whats say we get a Pneusframe black market going? That is crazy

[Alpha]

For Alpha,

Just to stay short and sweet....

The P Frame effectively has to be an all new frame, the cost to re-mill and re-finsh existing frames not the mention that demensions and other factors may not be ideal would far out way the cost of manufacturing a new frame from scratch. That catch is in the numbers required to start production. And this is not to be condisending but , I realise you may not understand the difference in costs between dremeling something in your garage and setting up a CNC mill to do a one off or 'one at a time' custom job.

In additiion, and I suppose if you haven't shot a real Pnuemag this might also be hard to understand but....you simply can't use all off the shelf parts. MY version of the frame is leagues beyond the DIY'ers in terms of performance. You just don't get that with stock switches no matter where you buying them from...it's just that simple.

Look at this vid...this it at or beyond electro performance. The DIYer's aren't even in the ballpark of this performance...with all do respect.

Trigger Sesitivity

And the last thing I'll say on the subject is:

DW had/has the opportinuty to team up on this project and declined. (I don't know what the specifics were) and to my knowledge AGD has had zero interest in pursuing a PTP/AGD co-op effort up till now. So that's where we are today.

Jay.

Yeah, I completely understand that your 3-way switch was custom made. I've seen the videos, its stupid fast. I still think that there are way too many alternative options for PTP to just give up on it, and I really dont think there is an excuse for pulling the whole "Why shouldnt PTP get money from the patent they legally own" bit, when DW was just steps away from mass production.

Like Slade said, they should license it out to DW or something. The way I understand it is that there was a battle over the patent. DW filed for one (that PTP had pending for years), and PTP jumped on them.

What I dont understand is that PTP spent all that time and money over it, just to sit on their hands.

What I really dont get is that PTP supposedly had the patent since something like 2001 (or before), and it took them until 2004 to develop a working prototype. Deadlywind builds one in 6 months?

[GT]

1) Well, the quote you used to show that the EMag software is dead basically spells out why it had to die. How can you read that and then turn right around and ***** at Jay because it didn't happen? You pretty much know who killed that project, and they didn't work for PTP, nor was their name Jay.

2) PTP knows just as well as anyone else does that the project can't be done to meet your price expectations unless they make a whole crap load of them, AND sell them all. Regardless of how vocal the guys wanting this to happen are, they need to realize that there just aren't that many of them. Sure, there were 200+ "yes" votes on that poll, but I would be ridiculously surprised if more than 20% of them actually bought one at the projected price point. Cut that number in half at least if the final retail price is over the initial estimate. It just isn't profitable to build 500 of them, and then sell 30. And if you only build 30, they will cost $400 a pop. There really isn't a way to make them profitable right now, which is very likely why PTP is sitting on their hands. BUT, since they don't want to loose their collective asses on a dubious project, they are the bad guy who crushed poor DW with an SP'esce patent, and then did nothing with it. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. So, if you've got to take a hosing, better that it be a PR black eye than a financial kick to jewel sack, if you catch my meaning.

1. You and I, and someother maggers, know this. My beef is don't come out of the gates as the holly one for mags. You know dam well AGD doesnt like, so dont post that you are going to build it.

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on...

PTP thinks that you Mag guys aren't worth the trouble, and Jay went to the mats for you all. This is how you thank him.

Did you miss that in my OP? I know dam well PTP doesn't give dam. What completly pisses me of is when a PTP rep jumps in here to use AO has a marketing test bed. I know ,as well as the few old memebers who lurk here, that PTP has no intention of making mag products. SO don't post your R&D, period!!!

[Automaggot68]

1. You and I, and someother maggers, know this. My beef is don't come out of the gates as the holly one for mags. You know dam well AGD doesnt like, so dont post that you are going to build it.

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on...



Did you miss that in my OP? I know dam well PTP doesn't give dam. What completly pisses me of is when a PTP rep jumps in here to use AO has a marketing test bed. I know ,as well as the few old memebers who lurk here, that PTP has no intention of making mag products. SO don't post your R&D, period!!!

[GT]

Well....
In regards to PTP's support for the Mag , it has always been directly related to the support they have recieved from AGD and from the Mag buying public. The sad truth is that the Mag as a whole has been and is basically all but dead. It is no longer a viable product and has not been for quite some time. Its existstance is based solely on grass roots word of mouth and this paintball forum (without which none of the other smaller forum spin offs would have ever seen the the light of day).

Now we are getting somewhere. Lets start with PTP's version of the Emag. There are countless post regarding QC/tollerence issues associated with the micro E. Is it reasonible for AGD to pick up the mess after PTP?


If the sad truth is that mag's are not profitible why does a PTP continually wave the carrot only to a. eat it up or b. take it away completely?

The 'few' people here on AO making Mag products, most of which are starting with stock AGD parts in the first place and simply re-mill and/or simply re-annodize them , do NOT have to make the huge investments in raw product , production , design , development and manufacturing...would also not last a single day in this business if thier whole income depended on Mag sales.

First,
I dont know very many AO dealers who use AGD stock to make thier parts, with escpetion to rails. All of the grip frames are new cuts as well as feed tubes, triggers, etc. Who using AGDs old stock for thier new products?

Wait a sec, I thought PTP made other things than mag parts? Infact right now they dont make a dam thing for a mag. Where does thier whole income rest on mag parts? The R&D on two two projects are complete. what is the hold up getting them to market?


My point: Don't post what you are doing becuase we know, and you, dam well that it is not going to happen


gt
-go 'stros

[RRfireblade]

Yeah, I completely understand that your 3-way switch was custom made. I've seen the videos, its stupid fast. I still think that there are way too many alternative options for PTP to just give up on it, and I really dont think there is an excuse for pulling the whole "Why shouldnt PTP get money from the patent they legally own" bit, when DW was just steps away from mass production.

Like Slade said, they should license it out to DW or something. The way I understand it is that there was a battle over the patent. DW filed for one (that PTP had pending for years), and PTP jumped on them.

What I dont understand is that PTP spent all that time and money over it, just to sit on their hands.

What I really dont get is that PTP supposedly had the patent since something like 2001 (or before), and it took them until 2004 to develop a working prototype. Deadlywind builds one in 6 months?

A) PTP hasn't given up on it yet and from what I understand DW was NOT ready for mass production but only ready to have someone else take it from there , AGD at the time who eventually backed out.
B) DW had the option to license it if they chose to do so. There was no Patent battle at all, DW claims that they don't infringe and claim to have a seperate valid patent application.
C) The PTP Patent was filed in 2000 but USPTO did not grant it till the granted date 4+ yrs later.
D) I agree 100 million percent. PTP should had this thing going 4 years ago.

[RRfireblade]

Now we are getting somewhere. Lets start with PTP's version of the Emag. There are countless post regarding QC/tollerence issues associated with the micro E. Is it reasonible for AGD to pick up the mess after PTP?


If the sad truth is that mag's are not profitible why does a PTP continually wave the carrot only to a. eat it up or b. take it away completely?




First,
I dont know very many AO dealers who use AGD stock to make thier parts, with escpetion to rails. All of the grip frames are new cuts as well as feed tubes, triggers, etc. Who using AGDs old stock for thier new products?

Wait a sec, I thought PTP made other things than mag parts? Infact right now they dont make a dam thing for a mag. Where does thier whole income rest on mag parts? The R&D on two two projects are complete. what is the hold up getting them to market?


My point: Don't post what you are doing becuase we know, and you, dam well that it is not going to happen


gt
-go 'stros

A) They all originally started out using stock AGD parts.Still doesn't change the fact that none of them will make a dent in annual sales worthy of dedicated /primary full time Mag part production.

B) Never said PTPs current income has anything to do with Mag parts , on the contrary I said the Mag market has not been near large enought to warrant mag part production...been that way for years now.

C) The 'problem' with PTP mags has been blown WAY out of proportion on this board in particualar. I won't say that they are perfect (not all AGDs are either, trust me) but the vast majority, a very high percentage relative to the production numbers, function flawlessly and with out incident. I have 1000's of very satified and return customers of PTPs products going back almost 20 years. Not to mention PTPs has always handled it own warranty, not AGD. In fact I have warrantied 100's of AGD products myself at PTP with no cost to AGD or the customer. Don't believe the hype, or in this case the anti hype.

D) As I had previously stated, I agree PTP should have had this product out years ago. Since the day I started at PTP a pushed for it but there was little more I could do.It may be too little too late by now but as far as I know, it's not dead yet.

E) And TRUST ME....you won't hear a damn proto sneak peak from me...for anyone...about anything...from any company I do work for EVER AGAIN.

[11 Bravo]

You all should be mad at AGD for not getting involved in something like this, not at PTP for deciding that its not profitable to do on there own. If AGD was on board they could sell new markers with this frame and also sell it as an upgrade. As it stands now PTP would have to reach the automag owners that already exist and that have for the most part already upgraded their guns. I can see where they would think that its not going to be worth it.
AGD doesnt want anyone to upgrade their software or make new boards and they dont want to support someone elses mag frames. What they hell are they thinking? I sure hope they are working on something on their own.

We should also be thankfull to RRfireblade and everyone else on this forum that works on mag upgrades and support. (logic, luke, tuna, rouge, chris/devil, tag). If it wasnt for those guys we would be in worse shape.

[rkjunior303]

E) And TRUST ME....you won't hear a damn proto sneak peak from me...for anyone...about anything...from any company I do work for EVER AGAIN.

most people don't realize how LUCKY they were to even get a glimpse of what COULD HAVE been coming..

[behemoth]

most people don't realize how LUCKY they were to even get a glimpse of what COULD HAVE been coming..

I know!

I wanna see the stuff that Jay's done over the years that he hasnt shown (the things that never made it to market)

[rkjunior303]

I'm just sick of all the WHINING.

I mean, seriously. PTP is a company. Companies like to make money. So what do they do? They pursue projects that will give them the highest ratio of revenue gained to money spent..

Suck it up an deal with it.

(and yes, I would like to see that too, Behemoth)

[CoolHand]

2. This is straight rank BS. Dont tell me that you can't make a frame profitible in a mag as well as all other platforms. I love when folks on AO scream and shout about how it is to make a product. I am not saying its easy but come on.............

Alright, you show me how many products you've designed, brought to market, and made money on, and I will call your opinion on the matter valid. Until then, you might at least consider the word of someone who has, before you write it off as BS.

I know my production costs, and I know my market. If I could have done something, and made it profitable, you would have seen something from me on this front long ago. My production costs are not going to be much (if any) higher than PTP's at the low production numbers that the Mag version will have to be made in.

Just because you can make money on the blow-back version (which hasn't been seen yet either, I might add), does not mean you can do the same with the Mag version, because there are about 7-10 orders of magnitude more JABB's out there.