The PTP Choke.

[Lohman446]

mhmm.

Jay, just know some people out here Think that this is a bunch of BS, and you should be exhonorated for what you've done, not insulted.

that being said, those people would LOVE to see all the neat little things that you've created and never marketed for one reason or another...

No, we should crucify him for trying to keep us informed rather than simply stating no comment. Jay has never, in my opinion, done anything but good for this forum, his intentions have always been in the mag users interest and limited by his place and authority. Its too bad noone seems to understand that he tried for us, that he tried despite those who might pay him and question his motivations. Too bad really that we would do such a thing to him. I guess its part of the desperation of this forum...

[GT]

Maybe the Dealer thread is gone (along with 1000+ other posts and threads of mine, btw) because the person who started it in honest, good faith and in his own

I smell the Jim Drew WAS cover up...

good name is tired of being caught in the middle of this whole F N thing when he has NO CONTROL WHAT SO EVER on having things go the way he would like them too and is tired of getting slammed over and over again and at the same time having his mag loyalty

I am not questioning you, rather PTP. Don't give me the sob story: if you knew it (emag software or frame) would never be produced why bother?

[CoolHand]

I smell the Jim Drew WAS cover up...

Yeah, that's it, of course. You told him to build them by the thousands, or STFU and go away.

So, he's S'ingTFU, and going away. Happy now?

I am not questioning you, rather PTP. Don't give me the sob story: if you knew it (emag software or frame) would never be produced why bother?

OK, look dumb ***, we have all tried to lay it out before you in a polite and concise manner so that you could see that you are mistaken.

This has not worked.

What to do then....... Hrmmm...... OK, I'm putting on my PBNation hat, and regressing a few years here, bear with me.

I fear your intelligence (comparable only to a rotten head of cabbage, or maybe a cooked rutabaga) is too slight to grasp this concept, so I am going to do everything I can to spell it out for you.

Ahem:

H-E D-I-D N-O-T K-N-O-W T-H-A-T I-T W-O-U-L-D N-O-T B-E P-R-O-D-U-C-E-D.

Is that clear enough? Or do I need to find an elementary school child to interpret for me (or maybe I can go find that PBN speak translator)?

I mean really, if he KNEW it would never go, why in the hell would he spend all that time on it? Riddle me that one, brain-trust.

Get it through your skull, you are being an *** over a dilemma that cannot be solved. What you are saying is "Don't say a word until it's for sale.", which is exactly what I have been doing this last year. Guess what? IT DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DAMN. Why? Because when you spring new stuff on folks, they are surprised, confused, and a little intimidated. Not wanting to look like a fool, they assume they just missed all the hype that lead up to the product, and don't ask any questions they may have. Plus, having not known it was coming, big ticket items suffer from lack of expendable cash (IE they need to save for it). It leads to lackluster performance, trust me on this one.

Those of us in this industry are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. We either speak up early, and get slammed for taking too long (by people just like you), OR we hold our tongues, and surprise everyone, only to hear "Aw man! If I had known this was coming I wouldn't have bough ________.", AND get slammed for it (by people just like you).

It's a no win deal (like oh so many things in this industry), and all you ******** jumping up and down at the first hint of blood certainly isn't helping anything.

I don't blame Jay a bit for gathering up his toys and going home, I would too if as many people had been riding my ***, and lying about what I/my company did/does/thinks/runs/eats/etc.

OK, now I'm back to me. Normally I do not find it necessary to stoop to the level of cursing/insults/etc, but in this case I felt it best to talk to the savage in his native tongue (lest he be unable to follow the conversation).

To anyone offended (except GT of course), I am sorry you had to see that, but it was necessary (like shooting your favorite rabid dog, or clubbing baby seals).

[RRfireblade]

Gosh , you don't read very I guess... Who said it'd not getting made? As far as I know it's still planned.

It's a Mag product for goodness sake, it's not like the Mags out in the market are going anywhere anytime soon, it's not like the die hard maggers are going to want it more or less today or next week. You all waited 10 years for a Mag that won't break paint and that didn't effect the number of people who bought a L10 when it came out.

As for the Emag software, it's done and ready to go. Why are you not crying for me, the little guy who got pressured out of releasing it for fear of legal action and other implications?

You know, the more Mag product talk, proto stuff and dreaming, the more it attracts others to this market. For all you know , my Emag softeware could be what got TAG interested in a Pred board in the first place. I had posted a ULT like on/off assembly I'd been working on and that got squashed by AGDs ULT once it hit.Thats all my time,money and R&D for naught. How 'bout some more tears for me?

Besides those, I did the Fireblades and they were only as a proto for myself originally and the Xmag clamping breaches as well and those have done very well. Then this grip frame in which I designed and built and handed off (like 3 completely different versions of I'll have you know) to those that payed me to do so and had done nothing other than messenger info as it came to me since that point. I'm not a mind reader and I don't have a crystal ball. I also don't believe it's my job to screen all information for 100% validation that pertains to this forum. I've stated hundreds of times at least , that it has all been out of my hands. I have no control over anything beyond what I have already done.

I even prefaced all my posts with 'Expected" , "Assume" and "Possibly" ....and typically added "no gaurantee". What else do you possibly need?

So you would rather have no one experiment, protoype or otherwise dream about a Mag idea if it can't be produced and sold? WTF man? Are you seriously listening to yourself? Better start a petition to get the Workshop forum shut down then. Wait, that deserves another...

And my last response to anything to do with this Frame or anything PTP btw is....

Jim Drew Cover up? What cover up? I told you "I" deleted the thread !! From now on, any info you get from PTP will come from PTP or not at all.

In summary...

Thank you and good day.

[Maggot6]

Wow, those last two posts put us all in our places.,,..

[SummaryJudgement]

Can you feel the love

...btw I have no opinions on any of these matters...

[GT]

I like it when you respond that it means you have not been reading

I mean really, if he KNEW it would never go, why in the hell would he spend all that time on it? Riddle me that one, brain-trust.

So why was the emag software shelved? Hell Miscue finished his version in what 2002-2003, maybe earlier? Is it logical to think that AGD would not support ramping software, this wasnt a secret, but I digress.

I know my production costs, and I know my market. If I could have done something, and made it profitable, you would have seen something from me on this front long ago. My production costs are not going to be much (if any) higher than PTP's at the low production numbers that the Mag version will have to be made in.

So... if you knew it wasnt going to be profitible, by your example "long ago," do you think PTP did?

[neppo1345]

Wow...all I know is that a group this small and tight knit has no room for this. These are the kind of things that can crush ideas and possible improvements to HELP our slowly fading cause.

Because no matter how long it takes to come, we need something, anything to help pull in more mag users, this might be it....Good things take time people, its been how long since the last new product...4 years, (I'm new...so forgive me) but if you can wait 4 years, another few months sure as hell wont make any difference. I know everyones a bit antsy in their pantsy, but thats no reason to jump down the throat of someone trying to HELP us.

What company con truly make money off of mag parts? They're not mainstream enough...as I've said before something needs to be done...

If we can bring more and more mag users in, more products will come....more products means even more shooters,etc, etc it's a self sustaining reaction, it just needs something to get it started...who or what will be that match, I don't know...but someone needs to light it sooner or later.

and next time something like this rears its evil head...just think...

What would Tom do?

[CoolHand]

I like it when you respond that it means you have not been reading . . . .

WTH does that mean? You're gonna have to try that one again, sarcasm is only scathing when it's intelligible.

So why was the emag software shelved? Hell Miscue finished his version in what 2002-2003, maybe earlier? Is it logical to think that AGD would not support ramping software, this wasnt a secret, but I digress.

Well, for one, Miscue was doing the work for AGD (at least as far as I know, that's sure how it came across at the time), which means he tows the company mark, which was that Tom didn't want it to happen, which is fine, it's his company, it's his call. That does NOT infer that Tom/AGD would sue anyone who did. That's a bit of a stretch IMO.

So... if you knew it wasnt going to be profitible, by your example "long ago," do you think PTP did?

I don't know. PTP is like 250 times as big a company as I am, so I don't know what their Go/NoGo marks are, nor do I know what production run size they were shooting for.

Like I said, I know MY production costs, and I could not make it work with my batch sizes and the customer's preconceived price point.

Whether they would have come to the same conclusion, I can only guess at (which I already have).

Regardless of their intent for the Mag version, the fact still remains that the technology is easily ported to several platforms (in fact IIRC the Mag version was an afterthought). Even if you had a good incling that you couldn't make it work, why not go ahead and make sure? I mean, it would be stupid to simply pass on a questionable project with no research at all, simply because you think it might not go. That's writing off possible profit, for no reason, which is exceedingly stupid in the business world.

I know you are disappointed that it may never happen, but seriously, your "Do it or STFU" stance is not more than pointless lashing out (and doing so in a very juvenile way).

It's tantamount to a child throwing a fit because they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas. It's very immature, and pointless to boot.

So, I will answer with my own, slightly less juvenile stance ----> "Get over it and STFU."

That is all.

[Alpha]

Why cant wee be friends, why cant we be friends....

[Automaggot68]

Why cant wee be friends, why cant we be friends....

Because it will never be good enough for some of us.

[slade]

Because it will never be good enough for some of us.

<3


*insert mango smiley here*

[11 Bravo]

Too bad really that we would do such a thing to him. I guess its part of the desperation of this forum...

Holy cow I agree with you. (fell out of my chair)

It is like we are the red headed step child and we are starting to show our emotional scars.
Not very pretty or inviting to any future manufacturers either.


Jay has stated over and over that this has not been canceled why dont we wait to raise hell if and when it has been canceled. If we act like this with producers we are going to end up with nothing. It will be like it was fifteen years ago- when you had to make your own parts in the garage.

[Automaggot68]

Holy cow I agree with you. (fell out of my chair)

It is like we are the red headed step child and we are starting to show our emotional scars.
Not very pretty or inviting to any future manufacturers either.

No, it's because mag shooters have a victim complex.

[rabidchihauhau]

Chihauhau- I agree on the licensing vs. producing.
BTW- Which patent #(s) have the claims covering P frame pneumatic triggers?

They're readily available at uspto.gov. Public disclosure and all...

...and

given ALLLLLLLLLL of the posts in various threads on this subject and the general tone of such, I think that a lot of the disgruntlement is due to the following equation:

the technology exists
we like the technology
its not being developed for US
we can't make it ourselves
therefore
we're going to piss and moan

Like two year olds being told they can't play with matches. Waaaaaaa