Can paintball be saved ?

[punkncat]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

[RogueFactor]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

Great post.

[punkncat]

Great post.

Thanks....

Its very sad....and true.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.

[RogueFactor]

Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.

Dont be surprised when you find out other "high-end" markers are being made in China too.

Everyone wants cheap. Going to China is the only way to give the customers what they want.

[spike_ball999]

Definitly a good post.

It seems every sport I get into, or in paintball's case, back into, gets to it's pinicle, then falls right as I put my foot in the door. Skateboarding was sort of the same way. (I just can't get extremely hurt like that anymore. That's why I don't really do it.)

I guess the only thing to do at this moment is to in a sense, wait out the storm. In a best case scenario, all these new people rushing in would get sick of it real quick; their markers breaking and nobody to talk to in customer service because the company either doesn't care anymore, or they're far too busy because other people are having the exact same problem. From there I'd guess that it would progress to the true players staying put and the public accepting it, but it's not 'the craze' anymore. It would flatten out to a level but of course everything would be stable and inovations would be few and far between. They've already been done.

I'm basing that off of what I've seen happen with skateboarding over the past 6 years or so. Just look at it. People will come and go, but it's not like everyone wants in at once.

The question is, what is next?

[CKY_Alliance]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

I dont know where you play..but it takes alot more then just shooting a bunch of paint to win around here. If you dont like it then do something about it or quit..paintball is progressing and we will never ALL shoot the same marker..nor will there be ONE company producing gear...not as long as there is capitalsim... I dont see much wrong with the game..then again i dont sit there and Disect every aspect of it..i just play it and have fun...you should give it a try. (oh and i mean that in a nice way.)

Oh and PLEASE give examples of these serious quality issues...ye when you are producing as much as these companies are, you are bound to have a few bad ones ,but those that are messed up are generally replaced by one in perfect working order.

[cynikal]

this is why i am pulling out - going old school back to my roots of outlaw games and CO2 and may some HPA. i read an article a while back in APG about Limited Tech Tournaments in the woods - like the old days. i hate the soap operas and whinning and all the argues about which gun is better cause i paid x amount. cynikal is what i have become and i am happy now. what drives me crazy is these kids - self proclaimed "gun whores" that trade off guns every other month then can't understand why they are not consistant winners a the tournaments. i tried to tell them of teh good old days when the All-Americans made teh switch to teh old shoebox shockers the first few tournaments they suck it up. everyone blammed it on the gun switch even members of the team mentioned it. look at all these other teams - you rarely see anyone sticking with a gun or barrel system for the whole season. the teams jump from sponsor, players think they a owed something, and the kids on pbnation are idiots. our sport has gone from what works to what looks good and is more expensive.

for example i helped a buddy start up a company called Spudnuk'l Paintball i designed the bolt and he milled and sold them i gave the designs to him for free. he went through a messy split with his wife , moved to texas, and i heard nothing from him since. well he lost it and made alot of people mad is to process, but before all that we started selling the bolts at the $15 range sales were for teh first few months ok as an expiriment we changed nothing but the name and upped the price to $25 the next month sales took off. people swore the $25 bolt was better that the $15 bolt. in an old ecomonics class we talked about the "market of stupidity" or something to that effect - too many years have past. i believe that is where 70-80% of the players are at.

i refuse to where any paintball uniform of any kind, i where an old navy flag shirt and some cut off black bdu shorts. i loathe the "hey i have the new '07 line of XXXXX uniforms - so i am better" attitude, but hats off the the paintball marketing groups they kicked these kids ***es and continue to do so!

[sixtoes1313]

yea. Very true and sad forum. Even the kids in my woodsball game cheat somtimes. Im like WTF guy. It doesnt count for anything.

[REDRT]

The rest of the paintball world can go to hell, but as long as there is people out there whom I call friends then it isn't a total loss.

[punkncat]

I dont know where you play..but it takes alot more then just shooting a bunch of paint to win around here. If you dont like it then do something about it or quit..paintball is progressing and we will never ALL shoot the same marker..nor will there be ONE company producing gear...not as long as there is capitalsim... I dont see much wrong with the game..then again i dont sit there and Disect every aspect of it..i just play it and have fun...you should give it a try. (oh and i mean that in a nice way.)

Oh and PLEASE give examples of these serious quality issues...ye when you are producing as much as these companies are, you are bound to have a few bad ones ,but those that are messed up are generally replaced by one in perfect working order.

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.

If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.

[SpitFire1299]

Meh, I <3 Paintball. The drama is entertaining.

[iambored]

Dont be surprised when you find out other "high-end" markers are being made in China too.

Everyone wants cheap. Going to China is the only way to give the customers what they want.

Don't Worry We'll Rule Rule the world in another decade; wait I thought we were China.

Hey, I didn't say it
At the rate were going and as much production is going in China all They need is a military and we are S.O.L.

[iambored]

And paintball is going down hill in masses, but not in small groups

[RogueFactor]

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.

If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.

Damn brother. I couldnt have said it better.

Ive bolded the parts that Ive found most glaringly true.

I think the only thing Id change is that Capitalism is killing paintball. True capitalism wouldnt allow this. True capitalism is about competition. What you see killing paintball is a baastardization of Capitalism, where those with money and power can snuff out those without for no other reason than they are big. Our system was set-up to keep this from happening.

The USPTO has been taken advantage of. So many have said that the SP Patent is weak, nonetheless it granted. That alone is enough for the big dogs who have the money to buy in, snuffing out those who cant---even though it shouldnt have been granted.

Such is life. I shoot mech.