Can paintball be saved ?

[REDRT]

I think this is where you are wrong. Name one sport that manufacters drive sport?

I can't think of any, but paintball isn't a sport really. Always has been only a game and manufactors control games how they see fit.

[Aggravated Assault]

I can't think of any, but paintball isn't a sport really. Always has been only a game...

I'd say there a bit of thruth in that.....



There are some awsome ideas mentioned and hopefully more to come. But I personally hope to see ideas on how to implement those solutions too.

Thats what I think may be the bigger hurdle...How the heck do you fight the proverbial "city hall"?

[mobsterboy]

can it be saved? anything's possible...
will it be saved? Nope
/thread

[rabidchihauhau]

speaking of field owners, here's a link to a story from my google reports:

http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061126/NEWS/611260326

The field owner has 'been in business 15 years' and just didn't realize he needed to get that permit, and just didn't realize that regardless of what the property is actually being used for or looks like, the zoning designation determines everything...yea, right.

The discussion in re 'control' of the 'sport': its not a sport and it won't ever be so long as there remains a direct connection between teams/officials/promoters/corporations.

NPPL went a good long way towards creating a separation at least a direct one between the league and the corps. But not far enough.

You won't see as direct an influence with the older sports simply because they are not as technologically driven.

While there is still influence peddling and cheating going on in NASCAR (another tech-driven 'sport') they at least pay lip service to the concept that they must be in control of the technology and must, as a matter of course, place limitations on the tech. Paintball has not yet realized that limiting the tech used for competition is a good thing.

How to implement these wonderful suggestions? (btw - ones which have been put on the table for the past two decades). Give up. Unless you personally want these things and have a good couple of hundred million dollars to waste on implementing them. The only way to make it happen is to start doing it and to have enough cash to sustain it for several years while it builds support AND undergoes the inevitable attacks from the outside.

[RRfireblade]

Eh, it's not so bad.

Like anything else , Paintball has just undergone a HUGE growth spurt in the last few years (which is over now) bringing in all kinds of changes and new scenerios both player and business.

It will settle down , all those in it for hte wrong reasons wil go away in time and things will get back to some kind of middle ground . . . again.

I wouldn't sweat it to much.

Play with people you like at places you enjoy and be merry . . . or , go do something else.

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

[CKY_Alliance]

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

See i do play with a group of friends, but we play together as a team and so we always play against other teams and other people that are not friends of ours, i run into some of these problems, like cheating, and they do piss me off on occasion, we have gotten the short end of the stick many times, and have gotten into many confirtations..but it's still just paintball..the GAME i play for FUN, so i dont so much ignore these problems, i know they are there i just dont let them bother me to the extent of ruining my expeirence.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.



If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

These guns may be similar to you, but to me they are still very different, the shocker minuetley(sp?) resembles the dm6..the lines are semi comparable, but it is still a totally different gun that shoot completly different, weights more/less (dun know, but in general), feels different, balanced different, different lengths, both spool valve yes but they are somewhat different..oh and different manufactuers...i think you are looking at new products too generally and baseing the "similarites" off of looks along, the quality of these guns isnt bad..they have their off batches on occasion when its new but overall everything wokrs like it should, unless you are buying something cheap..but in paintball its ever so true that "you get what you pay for" i agree ions are garbage..but look at the new market it opened..so maybe sooner or later the infamous phrase above wont be true to the sport..and you will be able to buy something quality for cheap..because im with you i dont like the fact that my 1100 dollar gun is now worth 600 or less... and the guns perform fine, yes they do break, but look at what they do and how they are used..these thing cycle reddiculous amounts per second,but even if your just shooting 15 or less..the wear and tear is riddiculous,friction is real...even if the guns are maintained properly they will go down some way or somehow eventually..and thats not unexpected.. and i dont believe there is a gun that WON'T break someway..Not even everyones Beloved MAG, yes they break people..you just dont see it often because they arent used the same way as angels, Dm's,timmys,shockers.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

I know the dm6's had an eye alignment problem (well the 1st gens) i dont know much about it, i bought a Pm6 and was fine..i doubt dye just closed there eyes to the problem.. but like i said i dont know all of the details, nor do i with the angel..but in almost every industry...first generation products tend to have problems..there are some things manufactuer test wont catch. Oh and i do believe Dave Youngblood said they still cary much of the dm3 stuff..call them if you need the parts..they may not have it on the web site because its old but they have not just stopped supporting the older model owners.

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.

well the mid end electro market is new, many tank reg companies are re-desiging their regs so they are smaller and still perform as well or better, same with guns they are getting lighter and they are trying to get them to perform better, mask and hoppers are still advancing, products are still improving,..i believe you look at new innovations to vague...

And yes the legal problems are riddiculous,but welcome to big business...


I may have missed a few points,but you get the idea.

[hitech]

...and a road to race it on where you can cut through side streets and claim you came in first.

Sounds like the "Need for Speed" game my kids play on the XBox.

[tech-chan]

This made me cry!!!!

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.


Ok, I think we need to requuire a noob to play with a simple mechanical marker that does not shoot above 5 balls per second, a gravity feed hopper, a 20 ounce co2 tank and a mask...

FOR A YEAR!!!


Until he proves that he is not taken with the mercantilism bug he/she should play with noob gear.
Yes, i know that we have the want to be faster, invisible and have our paintballs fly over a mile before they start to curve. You don't need that, and you don't need an Ion or a Ego the first time you play!!!

Thank you, tech-chan

[robnix]

speaking of field owners, here's a link to a story from my google reports:

http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061126/NEWS/611260326

The field owner has 'been in business 15 years' and just didn't realize he needed to get that permit, and just didn't realize that regardless of what the property is actually being used for or looks like, the zoning designation determines everything...yea, right.

The writer is missing pieces of the story. He's been working with the County for several years on the permitting, because the county had nothing on the books regarding outdoor paintball fields in unincorporated areas and didn't know how to deal with this.

[rabidchihauhau]

for fantasy's sake, here's the way it should work:

1. MINIMUM of 1 year of documented/certified STOCK GUN PLAY. The 'year' is defined as a minimum of 32 days of play using only tilt-feed, pump operated markers with 12-gram cartridges as the only legal airsource. All paint must be carried in ten round tubes; players may not carry more than 120 rounds per game. Fields will 'punch the players' card and, after they've got 32 notches, they can move on to:

2. minimum of 1 year of PUMP GUN PLAY. Pump guns may have gravity feed loaders and/or hoppers. CO2 bottles can be used as an air source. 32 days minimum. Paint may be carried in tubes or 75 or 100 round pods. Nor more than 350 rounds may be carried per game.

3. Minimum of 1 year of STOCK SEMI-AUTO/DOUBLE-ACTION/ASSISTED PUMP play. Gas is still limited to CO2. 500 rounds of paint may be carried. Agitating hoppers may be used - but they may NOT be 'force-feed'. Semi-autos, double-actions and assisted modes are limited to mechanical and mechanical-pneumatic systems.

4. Minimum of 1 year of ELECTRO-SEMI-AUTO. Markers may utilize a solenoid to trip the sear; NO ENHANCED FIRING MODES AT ALL.

5. 1 Year ENHANCED ELECTRONIC MARKER play. Open - anything goes.

So - five years playing the sport, four of them without enhancement. You can also shave up to 8 'punches' off your card by participating in a day of play using one of the 'lesser' standards (play with stock class while everyone else used semi-auto) so long as you spend the entire day using the lower tech.

What does it get you? Well, let's see. It keeps you in the game for five years, almost 4 times longer than the average. It gives you three years of play with relatively low costs. It makes you purchase at least five different markers. It gets you a card with lots of holes punched in it. It gets you skills on the field you wouldn't have otherwise. It gets you laughed at by the other paintball idiots who aren't on a 'track'...

[hitech]

for fantasy's sake, here's the way it should work...

Do I get credit for previous years playing at those levels?

[rabidchihauhau]

ok - sorry that I didn't assume that the article writer was being an idiot...

however; as I have learned over the years, if something is not specifically zoned for what you want to do, you can't do it. If paintball is not booked as an 'industrial activity', you can't play in industrial zoning. If its not booked as an outdoor recreation, you can't use hunting grounds. etc., etc.

Zoning boards do have a way of defining things the way they want them to be defined and that's half the battle, but the biggest mistake is assuming up front that because something is not specifically prohibited, it must therefore be allowed. The zoning boards take unkindly to this kind of usurption of their power and will usually retaliate by making you spend all your money in futile attempts to get them to change their minds; of course, they won't tell you that, all they'll say is, well, need to do this other thing, or, you need a x-permit for another $1500 bucks...etc., etc. we'll reschedule you for the next hearing, not prepared to vote right now, we need another study...

buddy, if you are hearing anything like the above - find a different piece of property.

[rabidchihauhau]

Do I get credit for previous years playing at those levels?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

First you have to buy a membership card - its only $50 for the year.

Then you have to participate at participating field facilities (ONLY authorized ones) - but there aren't any yet...

Third, you know everyone in paintball cheats just about all the time, and that's the primary reason we can't give prior credit - all the tournament wannabes will get their friends to certify for them and we'll be right back where we started - with something like 23 million undeserving players out on the fields making ****** out of themselves...

Nice try tho. If you don't like it, just start a competing organization, offer 24 day certifications, we'll go into competition, call each other all kinds of nasty names, backstab each other and waterdown and dilute the entire program until its meaninless...

[hitech]

If you don't like it, just start a competing organization, offer 24 day certifications, we'll go into competition, call each other all kinds of nasty names, backstab each other and waterdown and dilute the entire program until its meaninless...

Sounds like a plan. Your on!



BTW, I aint no wanna-be tourny player. I played at the highest level (20 years ago, so what if there only was one level).

[openboater]

You are living the modern life cycle of recreation sports.

x-c skiing
alpine skiing
tennis
etc
etc

Only FISHING is different. but then, fishing embraces BEER.