Can paintball be saved ?

[rabidchihauhau]

OH BOY.

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.

If the job requires punishing an opponent who is staying in, then you do it. If the referees are working for the other team, you suck it up and do what you need to do to counter it.

This is not 'blind' reaction. With even a modicum of experience you can tell good refs from bad, whether someone is getting 'love' or not, what teams push the limit and which players cheat as a matter of routine. If some yutz is running down the field with hits all over him and destroying your players because the refs can't or won't stop him, you get in his face and force him to physical contact: if he keeps shooting, you keep shooting, wherever its gonna have the most impact.

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.

I and many other people paid good money to participate. I and many other people at the event are there to win and know (or rightly assume) that their opponents are going to try and win also - some of them honorably, but probably the majority will be 'at all costs'.

One team will not change this - all that they will accomplish will be to throw their money away. One single player can't change this, all he will be doing is not playing by the rules on the ground and costing his team. So long as the rules on the ground - both those that are printed (and usually ignored) and those that are assumed - are in place, anyone who doesn't play by them is being UNREALISTIC.

You only have two choices these days: Play in tournaments or stay away from them. If you choose to play in them, you can choose to play to win or you can choose to waste your money. Any discussion beyond that is academic and virtually pointless.

Do I like it? No. Should it change? Yes. Have I done everything I personally can to get it to change? Yes, in spades and at great personal and financial cost.

You can dislike this aspect of the game as much as you want to - you can even condemn those who continue to participate, but you can't advocate not accepting reality and dealing with it, and the reality is that most tournaments today are 'do whatever you have to in order to win'. Once you are there, the room for a discussion of morals and fair play is over, because sure as doo-doo there will be at least one other team who IS playing that way and you are going to lose if you don't act to counter it - on the field, not sitting behind a desk and waxing eloquent about how nice everyone should be to each other!

and btw - I could NOT turn off tournament-head and therefore refrained from playing in anything other than events or practices/skrimages.

[CoolHand]

OH BOY.

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.

If the job requires punishing an opponent who is staying in, then you do it. If the referees are working for the other team, you suck it up and do what you need to do to counter it.

This is not 'blind' reaction. With even a modicum of experience you can tell good refs from bad, whether someone is getting 'love' or not, what teams push the limit and which players cheat as a matter of routine. If some yutz is running down the field with hits all over him and destroying your players because the refs can't or won't stop him, you get in his face and force him to physical contact: if he keeps shooting, you keep shooting, wherever its gonna have the most impact.

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.

I and many other people paid good money to participate. I and many other people at the event are there to win and know (or rightly assume) that their opponents are going to try and win also - some of them honorably, but probably the majority will be 'at all costs'.

One team will not change this - all that they will accomplish will be to throw their money away. One single player can't change this, all he will be doing is not playing by the rules on the ground and costing his team. So long as the rules on the ground - both those that are printed (and usually ignored) and those that are assumed - are in place, anyone who doesn't play by them is being UNREALISTIC.

You only have two choices these days: Play in tournaments or stay away from them. If you choose to play in them, you can choose to play to win or you can choose to waste your money. Any discussion beyond that is academic and virtually pointless.

Do I like it? No. Should it change? Yes. Have I done everything I personally can to get it to change? Yes, in spades and at great personal and financial cost.

You can dislike this aspect of the game as much as you want to - you can even condemn those who continue to participate, but you can't advocate not accepting reality and dealing with it, and the reality is that most tournaments today are 'do whatever you have to in order to win'. Once you are there, the room for a discussion of morals and fair play is over, because sure as doo-doo there will be at least one other team who IS playing that way and you are going to lose if you don't act to counter it - on the field, not sitting behind a desk and waxing eloquent about how nice everyone should be to each other!

and btw - I could NOT turn off tournament-head and therefore refrained from playing in anything other than events or practices/skrimages.

I think you hit it on the head here, which is why I make the distinction between walk-on rec ball and tournament play. With the tourney ball, you know going in what you're getting into, so you don't have a lot of room to complain when your suspicions are confirmed.

I would also like to commend you for steering clear of the rec-ball scene since you cannot turn off the tourney blood lust. There are a great many players who cannot accomplish that either, but choose to still wail away on the first timers and rub how badly they "suck" in their faces.

I'm the exact opposite of you, playing wise, in that I have played tournaments, and I cannot get into a mindset that will allow me to to whatever it takes to win, so my money is wasted, even though I'm not THAT bad of a player.

For this reason, I will go watch a tournament, and I even used to sponsor a pretty large local team, but I won't play in them anymore. I just won't play like that. But that's OK, I'm not an aspiring pro or anything.

[rabidchihauhau]

Thanks for recognizing the situation for what it is. Too many people think the opposite, that somehow, because they just walked onto the tournament field, everyone has to play by some set of unspoken rules that they have in their own heads.

Its nice to dream - but that's all that it is.

I coach in order to satisfy my 'bloodlust'; I'll tell ya, screaming at a bunch of wannabes is even better than shooting an opponent! (I live by the simple philosophy that they will NEVER be good enough and they deserve to hear that fact screamed at them in as demeaning and belittling a manner as possible, lol...think the DI in Full Metal Jacket and you'll have some small idea...)

Too many times, players new to tournament ball fail to read the rules and interpret them correctly. By that I mean, they read 'you're out when the ref says you're out' - which in their heads means - if you get hit, call the ref, while it actually means, hide the hit, keep playing and mark as many opponents as you can before the ref gets to you.

and then they get upset when the other guy's rule interpretation beats them, and THEN they moan and complain instead of adjusting their style of play (or playing somewhere else).

if the rules in Monopoly say 'the banker can steal money and hide it under the board', you're just being stupid if you don't ask to be banker, more stupid if you don't check under the board after every turn, and really stupid if you get upset with the banker but continue to play...

Tournaments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT FAIR PLAY - even if many of them aren't these days,. and a sporting compeition of any kind is supposed to be about winning. We don't give gold medals to the guy that came in last. If he wanted to come in last and not worry about it, he'd be running for himself, not entering the Olympics; he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

[REDRT]

I cannot get into a mindset that will allow me to to whatever it takes to win, so my money is wasted, even though I'm not THAT bad of a player.

If you don't compromise yourself and uphold your intregrity of doing the right thing by playing fairly then I don't see it being a waste. Even if you don't win the game you still should have had a good time and way better off than the cheater(s). This mentallity you have to cheat to win is just wrong thinking. The only thing a cheat does is limit their growth in being a better person/player. Hard work, dedication, practice, the neccessary reliable equipment and the honest people that support you are all going to be things that is going to allow you to triumph ultimately over the people that cheat. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but when you earn it you know it.

[Aggravated Assault]

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.

This pisses me off - because every word is true.

The thing is, we're not playing on big woodsball fields anymore. If an event is staffed properly, theres no reason for refs not able to do a decent and fair job. Assuming refs are competent. It should be EASIER to control the game not harder! Ya ya, I know that theres a lot more paintballs flying around, but seriously, why cant it be done? This is what frosts me the most. We have the technology, the tools, and super small fields and we STILL cant control a tournament paintball game. Its a shame

[Lohman446]

Thanks for recognizing the situation for what it is. Too many people think the opposite, that somehow, because they just walked onto the tournament field, everyone has to play by some set of unspoken rules that they have in their own heads.

Its nice to dream - but that's all that it is.

I coach in order to satisfy my 'bloodlust'; I'll tell ya, screaming at a bunch of wannabes is even better than shooting an opponent! (I live by the simple philosophy that they will NEVER be good enough and they deserve to hear that fact screamed at them in as demeaning and belittling a manner as possible, lol...think the DI in Full Metal Jacket and you'll have some small idea...)

Too many times, players new to tournament ball fail to read the rules and interpret them correctly. By that I mean, they read 'you're out when the ref says you're out' - which in their heads means - if you get hit, call the ref, while it actually means, hide the hit, keep playing and mark as many opponents as you can before the ref gets to you.

and then they get upset when the other guy's rule interpretation beats them, and THEN they moan and complain instead of adjusting their style of play (or playing somewhere else).

if the rules in Monopoly say 'the banker can steal money and hide it under the board', you're just being stupid if you don't ask to be banker, more stupid if you don't check under the board after every turn, and really stupid if you get upset with the banker but continue to play...

Tournaments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT FAIR PLAY - even if many of them aren't these days,. and a sporting compeition of any kind is supposed to be about winning. We don't give gold medals to the guy that came in last. If he wanted to come in last and not worry about it, he'd be running for himself, not entering the Olympics; he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

So if I go to a $25 team entry, no prize tournament I should be playing to win not to have fun?

[RogueFactor]

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.

he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

Sport is supposed to be fun---not a bonus. Winning is the bonus. Whether it be tournament play, or rec play. For some, just competing is fun. For others winning is fun---for a multitude of reasons. Some like the money. Others like the fame. Others like the ego boost from bragging rights. Some like it for all those reasons. Not everyone has to be lumped into the "win at any cost" mantra. Some have fun because they know they have improved their skills since their last tournament.

The purpose of sport is to be better than you were. Some dont play to win, because they know they arent the best and never will be. They continue to play because they want to be the best they can be, to be better than they were. Those that do win, try next year to be better than they were this year. They dont stop playing or practicing because they won. And if they dont try to be better, they eventually lose to the team that does.

"Citius, Altius, Fortius" . Faster, Higher, Stronger. This is the Olympic motto, and is the basis for sport. Not to be faster, higher, stronger than your opponent. Just faster, higher, stronger. The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits.

Win at any cost is what destroys sport. Its the reason why every sport fights(maybe other than paintball) to keep the playing field even. Paintball takes the opposite approach and adopts the motto of "win at any cost". In paintball, tournament rules are changed to cater to manufacturers who are trying to 'win at any cost' by using the tournament series to beat their competitors. So its no secret as to why that tone, from the top-down, has spread through the tournament scene. Business is business, and is about survivial---survive at any cost. Sport is not. Its too bad that one has leaked over into the other. Ultimately, its malevolent for both.

[CoolHand]

If you don't compromise yourself and uphold your intregrity of doing the right thing by playing fairly then I don't see it being a waste. Even if you don't win the game you still should have had a good time and way better off than the cheater(s). This mentallity you have to cheat to win is just wrong thinking. The only thing a cheat does is limit their growth in being a better person/player. Hard work, dedication, practice, the neccessary reliable equipment and the honest people that support you are all going to be things that is going to allow you to triumph ultimately over the people that cheat. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but when you earn it you know it.

Yeah, I agree in principle that to win without cheating over those that do makes the victory all the more sweet.

However, in practice, what happens is I'm not that good. I'm not good enough to play clean and still out play someone who isn't.

In which case, the people who win come by to tell me how much I suck, at which time I feel compelled to strangle them to death. You could say I have some rage issues . . . . .

I don't want to kill someone over a game of paintball, so I refrain from getting into the situation in the first place.

[AGD]

You guys should all understand someting. In my opinion, Steve (Rabid) is the father of modern tournament ball. He was the one that started time outs, reffing from the sidelines, cheering spectators, outside refs and real rules! He actuall DID some research when everyone else was saying "we don't need more rules" and found out all serious sports have a rule book a mile thick. He realized that the refs can't sort things out on the fly so the time outs allowed for things to be fixed. Today you have multiple short games that accomiplish the same thing.

In order to personally try and send the sport in a better direction he fanagled all of his retirement money out of a locked account and put on his vision of a tournament. Most people ignored him but everyone that actually attended the tournament thought it was pretty darn cool!

He even had a promo for a million dollar paintball shooting contest! That has never been duplicated.

Love him or hate him, Steve plans, executes and puts his money where his mouth is. A lot of people hate him for it but I think had we followed his lead we would be in a better place today.

AGD

[Skeeter]

[RogueFactor]

You guys should all understand someting. In my opinion, Steve (Rabid) is the father of modern tournament ball. He was the one that started time outs, reffing from the sidelines, cheering spectators, outside refs and real rules! He actuall DID some research when everyone else was saying "we don't need more rules" and found out all serious sports have a rule book a mile thick. He realized that the refs can't sort things out on the fly so the time outs allowed for things to be fixed. Today you have multiple short games that accomiplish the same thing.

So youre saying if we have an issue with modern tournament ball, its all Steve's fault?

I digress...of course he was the one who started all that, its in his best interest to do so. Being that Steve Davidson is the patent holder of this format, thats of little surprise:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=davidson&s2=paintball&OS=davidson+AND+paintball&RS=davidson+AND+paintball

Love him or hate him, Steve plans, executes and puts his money where his mouth is. A lot of people hate him for it but I think had we followed his lead we would be in a better place today.

AGD

I dont follow. If he is the father of modern paintball, the "win at all cost" attitiude, and we followed him...wouldnt we be right where we are?

[zorrotmm]

I digress...of course he was the one who started all that, its in his best interest to do so. Being that Steve Davidson is the patent holder of this format, thats of little surprise:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...n+AND+paintball

Holy crap. The game format can be pattented? Surely it's not enforceable?

[AGD]

Steve is the father of tourney ball the way Einstein is the father of the atom bomb.


AGD

[rabidchihauhau]

OMG. What was it Teller said? "I am become death, destroyer of worlds..."

Umm, thanks Tom...I think...


I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

I created the format because I didn't want it to matter whether you were a cheater or not - on the field, with enforceable and sensible rules, the best team would win - fairly.

I fought hard to get certain things established - like the idea that if the sport was worth ANYTHING on the open market, we had to STOP buying air time and devaluing ourselves in front of the networks, or the idea that referees can be trained by an outside organization and not be a part of the sport.

I had to shove it down everyone's throats because THEY felt threatened by me and what I was working on. Ask yourselves 'why' any team would be threatened by a fair format...

Tom/AGD and a few others stepped up to support the vision. Most of those early suppporters (not Tom) have participated in one fashion or another in stealing it and corrupting it, and turning it right back into the very thing it was designed to correct.

I did all of that because I was sick to death of having good, winning teams punished by a fixed system of entrenched cheating and collusion.

I am NOT advocating 'win at any cost'. I am saying that right now, that's the environment you are stepping into when you play in tournaments and to expect success to result from doing anything else is a wasted effort.

[rabidchihauhau]

So if I go to a $25 team entry, no prize tournament I should be playing to win not to have fun?

Its not just $25...

Travel; gasoline and wear and tear on the car
Maybe a hotel stay
Air
paint
equipment wear and tear/replacements (even if its only pods)

That sounds like a scrimmage, not a tournament, but even if it is a tournament - if you are not there to win, why are you "competing"?

Competition - "rivalry between two or more persons or groups for an object desired in common, usually resulting in a victor and a loser but not necessarily involving the destruction of the latter."

Sport - "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc."

Win - "1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary"

Fun - "1. something that provides mirth or amusement
2. enjoyment or playfulness"

Notice that neither the definitions for competition and sport have the word 'fun' in them, and the defintion for 'fun' says nothing about competition...

I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you are competing without the intention of being victorious, what's the point? You can compete (putting winning FIRST) without having to resort to cheating, so, again, what's the point?