Can paintball be saved ?

[__Phoenix__]

If you think its hard to aim while shooting 15 bps ramping, try to aim while shooting 15 bps in semi. Then try it using a mechanical marker.

Youll find it takes a lot more skill to do.

I've been chronied and/or goldwaved several times at 15-16 bps using a mech marker. Not terribly difficult, but ramping is a bit easier.

However, I don't ramp other then intimidation factor in the staging area. Which personally boggles me as to why kids are intimidated by a player with a ramping marker... not like the ramping marker means I'm better then those that actually play with a ramping marker or that pulling 5 bps and getting 15 equates to skill

[zorrotmm]

I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

That's very interesting. I just didn't know it was possible. But I guess that goes back to my enforcability comment. Obviously it has been stolen/modified/corrupted from what you pattented, so were you ever able to follow up on the pattent? I wonder if it's worth pattenting, and how you would actually enforce it. I don't think it's a bad idea, but how would we make it work?

[hitech]

To win at any cost and by any means is the mantra of paintball now. Because, how can you rub it everyone's face if you DON'T win? You can't, so in order to be the rub-er, instead of the rub-ee, you MUST win.

Any more, when I play woods ball I couldn't even tell you how won unless I'm near one of the flag stations near the end of the game. And it goes without saying that I don't really care.

Even so, I still get overly intense sometimes. I generally feel guilty when it happens.



P.S. Tounraments have always been win at all costs as far back as I can remember. My first tournament was a real eye opener, back in 1980 something. I do remember Navarone playing "fairly" clean against me. But, most of you have probably never heard of them. Wonder why...

[__Phoenix__]

...
Sport - "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc."

Win - "1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary"

Fun - "1. something that provides mirth or amusement
2. enjoyment or playfulness"

Notice that neither the definitions for competition and sport have the word 'fun' in them...

well, niether does the definition of "fun" have the word "fun" in it
LOL, couldn't resist.

My position on the matter, as a recballer for "fun"... paintball is fine. I do great every weekend I go out. As long as I can get good paint for $40 a case and oring manufactures make the sizes I need, I'll be happy and can live without "pro" paintballing.

[SCpoloRicker]

I've been chronied and/or goldwaved several times at 15-16 bps using a mech marker. Not terribly difficult, but ramping is a bit easier.

O RLY?

/is it that time again?

[BourneKiller]

"Citius, Altius, Fortius" . Faster, Higher, Stronger. This is the Olympic motto, and is the basis for sport. Not to be faster, higher, stronger than your opponent. Just faster, higher, stronger. The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits.

I'm not sure I agree with how you said that.

The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits is generally flawed if said human is competing against themselves. Only when you compete against others do you know what's possible, and that's generally when you get the most out of yourself. Faster, Higher, Stronger... than I was before? Sure, I could always get better, but when competing against a professional or highly talented opponent, I see how far behind I am, see where the bar is, and step it up faster, higher, and stronger than I could have dreamed was possible.

I think a sporting arena where the intent was to be only better than yourself previously would be self-gratifying, but would result in significantly less achievements.

That is the Olympic motto, but Olympians were competing against each other, so it follows to say "Faster, Higher, Stronger than your opponent."

Otherwise, everyone would simply be tested against their personal bests, and would be crowned a winner if they improved.



______________________________

Hustle Paintball - They have the Hustle Hotties, too!

[rabidchihauhau]

That's very interesting. I just didn't know it was possible. But I guess that goes back to my enforcability comment. Obviously it has been stolen/modified/corrupted from what you pattented, so were you ever able to follow up on the pattent? I wonder if it's worth pattenting, and how you would actually enforce it. I don't think it's a bad idea, but how would we make it work?

Some patent experts say that you can't patent a game format. My patent expert (who is an academic intellectual property guy who writes papers on patents that all the other experts use) has said that it is possible and that there is absolutely no doubt that the folks who are using my format are infringing on my patent.

I do not have the dollars for a long, drawn out legal battle; we used whatever means we did have in order to try and get the other folks to - license, purchase, cease and desist, etc.

What I have patented, in the broadest sense, is the concept of multiple scores within a paintball game. I have also patented the concept of stopping play to assess penalties, the concept of time-based penalties and the concept of re-positioning based penalties (losing ground to serve a penalty).

The rule book itself (copyrighted) is also telling; it was the first paintball rule book to be written for the game officials, not the players. (The player rules summary is 2 pages, the rule book itself is 3 volumes.) Interestingly enough, several league's rule books have now begun to be written this 'new' way.

Our original concept was to make the format available as a license with a protected geographic territory for the licensee; the licensee was also granted the right to sub-license the format within their territory; sub-licensing fees were reasonable and it was entirely possible that a licensee could have their annual fees covered by one or two sub-licensors - therefore, they got to use it at no cost.

Licensees were obligated to extend certain fixed costs to member teams when those teams used the facilities; those costs allowed for profit, but kept a team's expense under control.

Licensees were also obligated to carry a certain amount of national advertising brought to them by the parent organization, and had to share a percentage of any local advertising they sold (10%); this created a revenue stream for fields that had not previously existed, as some of the advertising revenue to the national organization was used to underwrite events, referees and etc.

The idea was, in general, to put national competition play on a budget, where team costs were controlled, in an environment where that would not negatively affect their performance, and to create entirely new revenue streams to cover the expenses to everyone; we would then have gone further by licensing gear (official mask of, official pod of, etc) - both as a way to control technology and as additional revenue - plus the league's endorsement of those products as an added benefit to the manufacturer. Essentially - pool the expenses so they are as low as possible and use outside dollars to pay for it all.

See, I view tournament ball as the potential marquee attraction of paintball - a way for the industry to put something enticing and exciting out there to excite new customers - and that kind of advertising/marketing should not be a financial burden - it should actually pay for itself. Our concept provided one well-researched method for accomplishing those goals.

(I was also attempting to 'fix' many promotional/advertising/endorsement issues that other professional sports have with a 'shared-revenue' policy. If you were signed to a team and gained an endorsement contract, a percentage of those fees went to your team, not just you, and the team shared a percentage of their revenue (profits, actually) with the league, so that no 'franchise' would be able to out-spend another and no player would be able to rise to a level of not needing their team any more. Some folks complain about this as being 'unfair': well, the Dallas Cowboys got into a legal battle with the NFL over just this kind of thing, and basketball is a perfect example of why you don't want to have only a single 'name' player to ride on. The way I viewed it was that the 'league' was the primary entity, from which flowed the teams and from them the players, so asking teams that were doing well to contribute and players who were doing well to contribute was only reasonable, since no one would know who they were if it hadn't been for the league and the team. If one franchise is having trouble, it affects the whole league - why not use success elsewhere to even the playing field?)

We also did things like lock in team names with trademarks, curtailed a lot of player movement, put in place a policy that prevented players from just willy-nilly leaving a team, a structured advancement for farm teams, etc., etc.

I think that's enough for now.

How to get it started? Anyone got a couple of million dollars to blow on a tournament series?

[__Phoenix__]

O RLY?

/is it that time again?

YA RLY

/checks watch
//yup

[rabidchihauhau]

well, niether does the definition of "fun" have the word "fun" in it
LOL, couldn't resist.

My position on the matter, as a recballer for "fun"... paintball is fine. I do great every weekend I go out. As long as I can get good paint for $40 a case and oring manufactures make the sizes I need, I'll be happy and can live without "pro" paintballing.

The real problem seems to be the 'attitude' that one type of player has towards another.

Playing to win (tournaments), playing for fun (rec), playing for a mix of fun and competition (scenario) are all equally valid, provided that you know what you are playting for in advance (as in NOT playing like you're in a tournament when you step on the rec ball field).

Tournament ballers look down on every other type of baller and vice versa. The fact is, if you are getting what you want out of it, be it testing yourself against others, having fun or playing an interesting character, there's nothing to be looked down on. I might think it silly or pointless to play the way someone else does, but thats a personal opinion, not reality. Reality is if you are getting what you want out of the experience, its a valid one.

True, tournament players as a breed are arrogant and, if their mental tranining is good, they 'should' be looking down on everyone else - all other paintballers including other tournament ballers - maybe even their teammates - because you have to win mentally as well as physically and psychologically to BE a winner. Unfortunately, this attitude is carried outside of the bubble that its supposed to exist in.

[zorrotmm]

How to get it started? Anyone got a couple of million dollars to blow on a tournament series?

Excellent post. There's a lot of good information and ideas there. But you're right, it takes money, and you generally can't find the funding and a concern for the sport in the same person or organiztion. I hope one day we can change that. We'll have to see.

[RogueFactor]

I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

Nothing wrong with that. Its business. Incidentally, what cost $750,000?

I fought hard to get certain things established - like the idea that if the sport was worth ANYTHING on the open market, we had to STOP buying air time and devaluing ourselves in front of the networks, or the idea that referees can be trained by an outside organization and not be a part of the sport.

100%. That's all televised paintball has seemed to be --- proof that the sport isnt worth watching.

He even had a promo for a million dollar paintball shooting contest! That has never been duplicated.

Steve, explain what this was. Sounds interesting.

[rabidchihauhau]

Nothing wrong with that. Its business. Incidentally, what cost $750,000?


100%. That's all televised paintball has seemed to be --- proof that the sport isnt worth watching.



Steve, explain what this was. Sounds interesting.

promotion. legal fees. event fees. staff. referees. equipment. rentals. advertising. greasing palms. salaries.

as long as tv is not done right...

we found a company willing to insure us against a million dollar loss for a fee. we paid the fee, allowing us to post a million dollar cash prize. We had a target shooting contest - anyone was qualified to enter. the winner went on for a chance for the million bucks. he had three targets to shoot, each was divided into a number of numbered areas - ten, 8 and 6 if I remember - he shot his picks and then we opened the envelope - only to find out that the insurance company had screwed up and had the wrong percentage numbers down (their numbers would have allowed targets of ten, 7 and 5 numbers - or something like that); the whole thing was legit, but the insurance company screwed up; ultimately, part of the 750k went towards paying that bill and something for the player. he got a bunch of product prizes also, but man were we hoping he'd win the million!

I probably ought to do that one again...

This time as some kind of national qualifier and then the big money pay off...hmmm

our alternative was to have a million cash on the line for any team that had a perfect tournament - no losses, winning scores - but those odds were way too long.

[RogueFactor]

I had to shove it down everyone's throats because THEY felt threatened by me and what I was working on. Ask yourselves 'why' any team would be threatened by a fair format...

Most of those early suppporters (not Tom) have participated in one fashion or another in stealing it and corrupting it, and turning it right back into the very thing it was designed to correct.

Steve:

Wanted to ask a few more questions, all the history is interesting...

Why did those who participated feel threatened?
What made them want to steal it rather than pay the fee?
How does what we see today differ from the original that would have corrupted it?

[p8ntball72]

Steve Davidson began playing paintball in 1983. He captained the Muthers of Destruction paintball team based out of Skirmish USA from 1984 through 1988; the team took first place in their first tournament appearance. The Muthers won numerous first place finishes at regional championships and finished 4th overall in the first PMI/RPScherer North American Championship.

He helped found the Werewolves Competition Paintball Team in 1989 which became one of the top 15 player teams in the country form 1989 till 1991.

In 1990 he founded the NPSRS (National Paintball Statistics and Ranking Society) which later changed its name to the World Paintball Federation, and which was responsible for establishing the standards for tournament team scheduling, team seeding and ranking still in use today.

In 1992 he founded the NPPL, serving as that organization's coordinator for its first two seasons and was elected Secretary in 1996.

In 1996 he resigned from the NPPL to operate the GTO tournament series, the first nationally held ten player series for amateur teams only, and the first series to offer guaranteed prize packages.

In 1999 he received a patent for a game format which formed the basis for the X-Ball format . He briefly founded a new league - the United States Paintball League - to introduce the new format and held the country's third largest tournament in 2000 - PaintFest, and is among the first people to obtain televised airings of paintball competitions.

From 1997 through 2004, Steve consulted at Pro-Team Products, heading up their intellectual property division and managing their factory showroom.

In November of 2004, he left Pro-Team to establish Vengeance Paintball Distributors.


With all this "History" of Starting five some odd "leagues" then going so far as patenting your own Format.

Seems that someone has stolen your PIE!!

[rabidchihauhau]

Paintball72 - there's no 'pie' to steal; all I wanted was a piece...

Roguefactor - oy...

why did people feel threatened?

let's see. in 1992 I took away the paint manufacturer's ability to host national events that were Tournament Paint Only when we introed NPPL. The teams wanted it and all the smaller mfgs who couldn't afford to host their own national events were at least a little positively inclined, but it left others with money po-ed. They had pretty much had a guaranteed bully pulpit for their chosen teams/product up till then.

The NPPL made others feel threatened because I was on a 'mission from god' to bring fairness to the game and some people wanted the ability to promote themselves, their teams and their products without having to bother with 'winning'. Up till that point, events were pretty much a foregone conclusion as to who was going to win. It started with 'promoters' not even posting the scores, making it eminently easy to 'fix' the outcome. Later, as things tightened up, the fixing became much more subtle - selecting the fields/stations teams started from, putting a particular reffing crew on a field, manipulating the prelim schedule, assessing or not assessing major penalties outside of the rulebook, etc.

I insisted on higher standards at every event I did. Instead of one or two basic portajohns, I brought in ten or 12, set some aside for women, and rented the wedding ones, with sinks and larger areas. Instead of 'a field out in the middle of nowhere', we went to fairgrounds that were less expensive and had better facilities. Instead of the minimum number of refs per field, I added two to four more bodies. I gave the teams their entire schedule of games up front, before the event. Instead of working with hotels to UP the room rate so I could pocket a few extra dollars, I booked blocks of rooms and passed the savings on to the teams. To keep teams from using hotel linen and toilet paper to clean their gear, we purchased thousands of shop rags and gave them to the hotels to hand out. Instead of paper certificates that 'might' be redeemable for product, we had all the prizes physically on hand.

In other words, when I put on an event, all the other promoters knew they were going to have to take more dollars out of their pockets for their next event if they wanted to keep up with the joneses.

Why steal instead of working with me? Probably two 'good' reasons. One - its cheaper since you won't have to cut Davidson in for a piece and Two - I was being messianic and not accepting anything less than perfection, whereas most everyone else just wanted to do enough to get the teams to attend. They probably didn't want to have to deal with that 'unreasonablness.

All I know is that if you strive for perfection, you won't get there, but you might come close. If you work towards less than perfection, that's what you'll get.

What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

The list goes on and on...