Can paintball be saved ?

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  • rabidchihauhau
    What Oppenheimer said 7/16
    • Sep 2001
    • 766

    #151
    Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
    Paintball72 - there's no 'pie' to steal; all I wanted was a piece...

    Roguefactor - oy...

    why did people feel threatened?

    let's see. in 1992 I took away the paint manufacturer's ability to host national events that were Tournament Paint Only when we introed NPPL. The teams wanted it and all the smaller mfgs who couldn't afford to host their own national events were at least a little positively inclined, but it left others with money po-ed. They had pretty much had a guaranteed bully pulpit for their chosen teams/product up till then.

    The NPPL made others feel threatened because I was on a 'mission from god' to bring fairness to the game and some people wanted the ability to promote themselves, their teams and their products without having to bother with 'winning'. Up till that point, events were pretty much a foregone conclusion as to who was going to win. It started with 'promoters' not even posting the scores, making it eminently easy to 'fix' the outcome. Later, as things tightened up, the fixing became much more subtle - selecting the fields/stations teams started from, putting a particular reffing crew on a field, manipulating the prelim schedule, assessing or not assessing major penalties outside of the rulebook, etc.

    I insisted on higher standards at every event I did. Instead of one or two basic portajohns, I brought in ten or 12, set some aside for women, and rented the wedding ones, with sinks and larger areas. Instead of 'a field out in the middle of nowhere', we went to fairgrounds that were less expensive and had better facilities. Instead of the minimum number of refs per field, I added two to four more bodies. I gave the teams their entire schedule of games up front, before the event. Instead of working with hotels to UP the room rate so I could pocket a few extra dollars, I booked blocks of rooms and passed the savings on to the teams. To keep teams from using hotel linen and toilet paper to clean their gear, we purchased thousands of shop rags and gave them to the hotels to hand out. Instead of paper certificates that 'might' be redeemable for product, we had all the prizes physically on hand.

    In other words, when I put on an event, all the other promoters knew they were going to have to take more dollars out of their pockets for their next event if they wanted to keep up with the joneses.

    Why steal instead of working with me? Probably two 'good' reasons. One - its cheaper since you won't have to cut Davidson in for a piece and Two - I was being messianic and not accepting anything less than perfection, whereas most everyone else just wanted to do enough to get the teams to attend. They probably didn't want to have to deal with that 'unreasonablness.

    All I know is that if you strive for perfection, you won't get there, but you might come close. If you work towards less than perfection, that's what you'll get.

    What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

    It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

    The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

    Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

    I bet that no one playing the 'other' format knows why the field length is 200 feet? Its so that the back end of the field is far enough away from the other team at the beginning to allow for cross-field movement - but still being close enough to allow for some hits. In other words, the teams START the game just inside effective engagement range. My field was 120 feet wide - again because of gun ranges: A(sqr)+B(sqr)=C(sqr), right? The field's diagonal is therefore 233 feet - just barely, conceivably within 'annoyance' range - PREVENTING truly effective firing from corner to corner. THIS is key in promoting manueverability.

    I didn't just make some stuff up - I studied this crap hard for ten years. Shooting cross field (tape to tape) is a minimum of 120 feet - not an easy shot, which breaks the field into at least two alleys for lengthwise manueverability.

    PLUS, 200 x 120 (playin field, actual dimensions 220 x 140) just fits inside a football field, meaning that there are tens of thousands of potential locations for playing the format already available across the country.

    What I realized about all concept field tournament ball was that it sucked because it put all the emphasis on shooting and none on coordinated movement - which was the essence of woodsball. I was bound and determined to find a way to bring movement back into the game and the play at PaintFest was proof positive that the theories were sound. The teams figured it out pretty quickly and we saw a lot of very exciting 'infiltration' play, with bursts of multiple bunkers when teams had manuevered into key positions. Any sports cameraman will tell you that 'movement is it' for the camera.

    Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

    The list goes on and on...
    I could write volumes on this (I already have)...

    crap - I didn't mean to quote myself...I thought I hit the edit button, but I guess I hit the reply instead...
    Last edited by rabidchihauhau; 12-05-2006, 07:31 AM. Reason: addition
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    • Lohman446
      Useful posts: 7
      • Jun 2003
      • 9315

      #152
      So....

      A tournament is about winning, not fair competition?
      "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

      Comment

      • hitech
        Not a shedder of vortices
        • Nov 2001
        • 4775

        #153
        This has to be the best thread I've read in a long time. Since I was around back then I can even relate...



        Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
        Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
        The only Hitech Lubricant

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        • CKY_Alliance
          Team Deranged
          • Jan 2005
          • 1695

          #154
          So rabid do you still have your hand in the nppl? seems as if you don't, but if you hold the patent to it...i dont see why you wouldnt..so i guess im asking if you are not still involved why not? Just the backward ness of it?

          Comment

          • rabidchihauhau
            What Oppenheimer said 7/16
            • Sep 2001
            • 766

            #155
            OY... TALK ABOUT OPENING OLD WOUNDS.

            WHO'S GOT THE SALT?

            OK - here's a bit of paintball history not known to most folks:

            The companies that were my primary backers for PaintFest came to me as a group on the second day of the event and said "Steve, we think this is really great. How many events do you want to do next year?" (2001). I said, I think 5 or 6. They said "Great, we want to do a whole series also. This is what we're going to do. We're going to put our heads together and come up with all of your funding. Once this is over (PaintFest) and you've had a chance to rest, give us a call."

            I called. I called and called and called. Delay, put-him-off, delay, hide, ignore...

            Then the captain of a team that played PaintFest and who was working with one of the main companies (and sponsored by them) called me up and said "I was just at a meeting and they announced a new league and they're doing your format. When they described it to us I said 'that's Steve's format, I think you better talk to him' and they said "no no no no, its NOT Steve's format, we don't need to talk to him'. The team captain said "I played in it and its his - he has a patent and I think he's going to be pretty upset" "No, its NOT his format - it doesn't infringe on his patent, no, no no"

            and then the NXL was announced. The protests from the leaders in the room made it all to evident that they knew exactly what they were doing; there was even discussion about how much it infringed and wild protestations that it 'was nothing like his format'. In other words, they tried to carve out pieces of the format in order to cut me out (even though they weren't successfull, it still infringes).

            Following that, there was a tremendous media blitz to elevate a certain someone as the 'inventor and visionary' - the sheer number of interviews and press releases that ran certain quotes were plainly and simply designed to bury any claim I might have had in the paintball public's mind.

            Interestingly enough, every single person who was at PaintFest (and who is NOT currently working with or for the companies responsible for the above) has said two things: it most definately IS Davidson's format and I won't play x-ball because of what they did to Davidson.
            VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
            X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

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            • rabidchihauhau
              What Oppenheimer said 7/16
              • Sep 2001
              • 766

              #156
              Originally posted by CKY_Alliance
              So rabid do you still have your hand in the nppl? seems as if you don't, but if you hold the patent to it...i dont see why you wouldnt..so i guess im asking if you are not still involved why not? Just the backward ness of it?
              NPPL does not use my format.

              I'd like them to and have made numerous pitches, but it hasn't happened.

              I was doing an NPPL feeder series, but I'm afraid that my current situation (heart attack, business, etc) has really put me off paintball once and for all and I don't think I'll be doing the series.

              I love doing events, there's just too much grief from nay-sayers these days to make it worthwhile.

              I've got so many new and different formats, ideas to play with to keep things interesting. I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.


              oh well.
              VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
              X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

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              • CKY_Alliance
                Team Deranged
                • Jan 2005
                • 1695

                #157
                Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                NPPL does not use my format.

                I'd like them to and have made numerous pitches, but it hasn't happened.

                I was doing an NPPL feeder series, but I'm afraid that my current situation (heart attack, business, etc) has really put me off paintball once and for all and I don't think I'll be doing the series.

                I love doing events, there's just too much grief from nay-sayers these days to make it worthwhile.

                I've got so many new and different formats, ideas to play with to keep things interesting. I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.


                oh well.
                Oh, sorry i thought i read nppl, didnt look at the patents. Thats some shady stuff, i assume you decided not to take it to court? Not sure what i would do in that situation, get money and recognition i deserve and ruin one of the major formats, or let it be for the sake of the sport...( not sure if that was your mind set or not but that would be mine).


                Oh and event you described above,i assume it's in Fl since that is what your location says..my team would be down, sounds like a good *** time.

                Comment

                • hitech
                  Not a shedder of vortices
                  • Nov 2001
                  • 4775

                  #158
                  Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                  I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.
                  You must have done that for a reason. An event?!?


                  Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
                  Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
                  The only Hitech Lubricant

                  Comment

                  • punkncat
                    One foot less
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 5841

                    #159
                    I did not forsee that my post would illicit such good information out into the public eye. This is a spectacular group of posts/interview. Rabid, I want to thank you for taking all the time to reply and make easily available all this for us here on AO. I mean I know its no secret, but at the same time if you didn't know, or know where to look many of us would never have known this chapter in the history and decline of our medium.

                    I for one wholely support your endeavour and hope you can oversome the crap that has been handed to you. I would gladly donate to a fund if it would help you to handle legal costs to recover some sanity and some real regulation to save/salvage our game from the gutter which is is quickly washing into.

                    Thanks again

                    Comment

                    • rabidchihauhau
                      What Oppenheimer said 7/16
                      • Sep 2001
                      • 766

                      #160
                      Originally posted by hitech
                      You must have done that for a reason. An event?!?
                      Yes, I was planning an indoor event, but for various reasons that particular one was shelved for the time being.

                      My task was to find something in the states that could handle a skyball type event.

                      Oh BOY did I find it.

                      Here are some details:

                      indoor staging that could handle 100+ teams at a time, each with their own table; paint sales were right there and so were fills; you'd basically walk maybe 20 to 30 feet to get your fills, and 50 feet to walk into the

                      pre-game staging area. an area adjacent to the fields that could hold 12 teams waiting to start their games, within feet of all of the fields.

                      once your game was called, you'd walk down an alley that took you to your flag station - with no one (for either end of the field) walking onto the field to get to their stations.

                      a HUGE indoor trade show area behind a moveable wall; permission to hang netting where that wall normally is so that the backdrop to the trade show are the fields

                      balcony seating; getting to it takes you through the trade show

                      additional trade show area right adjacent to the balcony seating

                      no lighting issues - plenty of ceiling lights

                      locker rooms that can be used for a limited number of teams (I figured we'd use them for VIP treatment for the teams making it to the semi-finals and on)

                      no jumbotron - but we could have brought in flat panels

                      an announcers/press booth over all the action

                      electronic scoreboard

                      clean

                      plenty of parking on site

                      hotels right across the street - tens of them

                      beaches on the other side of the hotels

                      IN A PARTY TOWN

                      where the bars, strip clubs and other attractions are already primed for groups like this and are more than happy to cut deals in order to get business/advertising.

                      I could do this one for under $100k - anyone want to invest?
                      VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
                      X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

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                      • RogueFactor
                        Registered User
                        • Dec 2001
                        • 633

                        #161
                        Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                        What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

                        It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

                        The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

                        Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

                        Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

                        The list goes on and on...
                        So where did it go wrong? Why wasnt there a 2nd? If there was, why isnt in proving to be more successful?

                        Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                        Interestingly enough, every single person who was at PaintFest (and who is NOT currently working with or for the companies responsible for the above) has said two things: it most definately IS Davidson's format and I won't play x-ball because of what they did to Davidson.
                        Do you believe that XBall is the successful format you had envisioned?

                        Comment

                        • don miguel
                          the legend
                          • Sep 2006
                          • 1141

                          #162
                          Originally posted by SpecialBlend2786
                          Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

                          I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.
                          no kidding ey? my friend conor will hate to hear that.

                          Comment

                          • rabidchihauhau
                            What Oppenheimer said 7/16
                            • Sep 2001
                            • 766

                            #163
                            Originally posted by RogueFactor
                            So where did it go wrong? Why wasnt there a 2nd? If there was, why isnt in proving to be more successful?



                            Do you believe that XBall is the successful format you had envisioned?

                            no.
                            VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
                            X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

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                            • RogueFactor
                              Registered User
                              • Dec 2001
                              • 633

                              #164
                              Originally posted by rabidchihauhau
                              no.
                              What about XBall isnt as you envisioned? What makes it fail where your idea would have succeeded?

                              Comment

                              • rabidchihauhau
                                What Oppenheimer said 7/16
                                • Sep 2001
                                • 766

                                #165
                                here's just a few:

                                1. they insist on allowing the game to run its course, rather than stopping play for infractions
                                2. they're still only playing 5 man center flag - a stalemate format
                                3. they keep changing the field layout - preventing teams from ever being able to develop 'plays'
                                4. they allow ramping/artificial shooting modes
                                5. they do not have enough refs on the field
                                6. they block camera angles with their huge 'x' in the middle of the field
                                7. they have done nothing to market the game outside of a very small group of people
                                8. they have done nothing to give the teams personalities that spectators can identify with
                                9. they have an antiquated scoring system where each goal is only worth one point - no chance for the equivalent of the long bomb-desperation touchdown
                                10. they rarely enforce all of the applicable penalties, and none of their penalties redress the imbalance of the game caused by the original infraction - everyone is STILL (after 25 years) left with 'oh well, we just got screwed'

                                It goes nowhere; its so intensive and expensive that they can't export it to the lower ranking teams, there's nothing to attact the wider paintball world to investing in it, there's no real player representation, there's no real roster rules, the list goes on and on and on
                                VENGEANCE PAINTBALL DISTRIBUTORS
                                X.O. INDUSTRIES PAINTBALLS

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