Can paintball be saved ?

[rabidchihauhau]

Here's another thing that happened:

we had the interest of IMG (the same 'biggest sports marketing company in the world' that was recently working with NPPL); all we had to do was provide a tape giving them some idea of what it would look like in front of the camera.

we had tape - there were three companies out at PaintFest covering it.

Initially, all the video companies called us up and said 'we'll tape your event for 10K'.

We said 'no'. Our sworn strategy was that we were not going to devalue the product by giving it away or paying to have someone work on it. We'd be happy to work out deals, and more than happy to have someone option the rights by paying us - but we were sticking to our guns and maintaining the potential value.

Well, wouldn't you know, but one of the video companies said - ok, you put up the product, we'll put up the taping; we want x, y, z for selling rights, etc., etc. We negotiated a fair deal - USPL would get a percentage of the video sales and pay nothing to get the event taped. Hey - problem of the tape for IMG solved.

Right.

Of course, once it became known that we got 'paid' for the rights to tape, the other two companies relented and said 'if you let us tape, we won't charge you'. We checked with the first company, who okayed the participation of the other two and we ended up potentially making a profit, having a production company that could get us on the air (and did) and a third along for the ride - all because we were right and stuck to our guns.

The event ends and guess what - everyone wants 10K to actually PRODUCE a video of the event and/or give us a copy for IMG.

So, maybe, somewhere, there's several hundred hours of tape of PaintFest in all its glory, waiting to be edited together.

Unless the tapes were wiped, as they probably have been.

That wasn't the end, though. The folks at the then WWF called up when the XFL fell apart and said 'we're interested in your format'

uh huh. they were also interested in having something they could schedule into all the stadiums they had already paid for...

I said 'sure, we'd definately be interested in talking, as long as you're planning on doing a serious sport and not a clown show...'

needless to say, there were no more conversations with the McMahon family...

[Aggravated Assault]

The thing is, there can be no change untill there is enough people fed up with the current state of affairs. When there is, I believe if there's a great alternative, people will come. I can only speak of stuff I read, or a few guys I know who still have friends industry. Lord knows I'm no "insider" and this is purely observational, but for awhile now I have almost sensed an growing undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the major tournament scene, different from the normal complaining.

First, The paintball rags all have articles on "why cant so and so get it together". Or they're bashing some aspect of an event or major sereis. I mean almost ALL of them. Almost every issue. A steady drumbeat. Second, Its worse than a game of musicial chairs with many pro teams right now. Why? I'll take a stab MONEY. People are making promises to pay and either A) they aren't making the money to actually pay them, ie. lying about it. Or B) Sponsors are drying up or falling thru or dont want to put out the big bucks into the game. This "pro" thing is almost a farce. Third, from what I am told the two big series are loosing money like its being shot out of a cannon. Fourth, From what I am told, even though paintball "growth" numbers are up again, sales are not what many of the big companies have expected. Add to that we have a format that isn't tv friendly, and paintball has to pay to play on it... And on and on...

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but I think the major players, ie. nppl psp, may be heading towards some kind of collapse. either or both. Or, at the least, some changes are going to have to be made for them to survive. I dont believe the leauges are as sound as they would like you to think.


Hopefully revolution isn't that far away. Maybe real tournament paintball can be saved.

[rabidchihauhau]

the same thing has happened several times before; one of them was 1991-1992 when we put NPPL together because of an industry-wide dissatisfaction.

That time it worked - but very shortly thereafter, the money-grubbers were back in charge.

As someone else noted, the teams have had the opportunities in the past and just haven't been willing to take a stand, or make their voices heard.

When we put NPPL together, we knew it would work because ALL of the national traveling teams were in it - without them, NO tournament had a chance at survival.

Don't get me wrong - I still back NPPL; I wish that the 'other' so-called national tournament series would hang up their banners and stop trying to run the only viable series there is out of business - one where AT LEAST lip service is being paid to fairness and sportsmanship.

I think the only appeal that can be made and might be heard is one to the corporate big boys who now run the show - its in their financial best interests to have a competition arm to the industry...

[RogueFactor]

I wish that the 'other' so-called national tournament series would hang up their banners and stop trying to run the only viable series there is out of business - one where AT LEAST lip service is being paid to fairness and sportsmanship.

Hasnt that been those 'others' Method of Operation to date?

Why would they want to build a bigger pie?! Its so much easier to destroy anothers pie instead.

[Aggravated Assault]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...

[zorrotmm]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...

I agree 100%. As I was saying earlier, forget the pros, build strong local fields and leagues. Years from now when we actually have a national INFASTRUCTURE, then maybe we can worry about pros again.

[RogueFactor]

Just enough to fly under the radar.

The revolution has to be grass roots.It has to offer what the current status quo does not.

Been saying that for 2 years now to all who would listen. Problem is, even those with little individual power dont want to start small. It takes allot of work. In our OCD/ADD/Gotta have it now society, everyone wants instant success and riches overnight.

[CoolHand]

Been saying that for 2 years now to all who would listen. Problem is, even those with little individual power dont want to start small. It takes allot of work. In our OCD/ADD/Gotta have it now society, everyone wants instant success and riches overnight.

About three or four years ago I tried to run a summer series with trophies and cash prizes. Nothing fancy, just fair/tough reffing and an overall concern that the teams had a good time. FPO $55 a case for Blaze, $45 per team entry fee ($15 per man, on a 3 man team, all the cash went to prizes for the top five teams).

I couldn't get anyone to come because I was out in BFE and we wouldn't tolerate cheating. The first date we had five teams. Second date we had three. Third - fifth dates I cancelled.

I was losing my ***. I had to pay the refs well enough that they'd pay attention, pay someone to watch the till and sell paint. I got real lucky that I found a venue that was willing to accommodate a gamble (a local youth soccer field who agreed to let us play for the concession proceeds), and a local scuba guy who ran his compressor off his truck's tailgate for the air money ($5 a man all day air).

I bought the field, the paint, and all the gear out of my own pocket. I got lucky again that I didn't get caught with half a flat of Blaze (I managed to sell it to a guy here on AO actually). The field I sold here on AO as well, but at a slight loss. I ended up eating all the support gear and other stuff (a metric assload of barrel condoms for starters).

I tried to bring PB to my town in a very affordable and fair way, and not a single person from the town it was hosted in actually played. NOT ONE. I advertised for weeks before the first date.

So I gave up. If no one in your own home town will support you, why bother. Screw-em. They can drive to St Louis if they want to play.

[RogueFactor]

About three or four years ago I tried to run a summer series with trophies and cash prizes. Nothing fancy, just fair/tough reffing and an overall concern that the teams had a good time. FPO $55 a case for Blaze, $45 per team entry fee ($15 per man, on a 3 man team, all the cash went to prizes for the top five teams).

I bought the field, the paint, and all the gear out of my own pocket.

I remember your field and the skid of paint you had for sale. Did you ever find out why the teams wouldnt show? Did you get any feedback whatsoever?

I helped run about a half dozen 3-man tournies in Southern California, with team entries at $105 per team($35 a head), which included all day air.We had between 9 & 20 teams show every event. One was put on every other month. I never did any of the ad/marketing, so I dont really know what was involved on that end. But I coordinated the paint for the events, which FPO was $55-$65 case for Zap mid-grade paint.

Needless to say, the event made money. Not for me, I was just a volunteer who helped support by reffing, and by getting wholesale prices on the necessities for them.

[CoolHand]

I remember your field and the skid of paint you had for sale. Did you ever find out why the teams wouldnt show? Did you get any feedback whatsoever?

I helped run about a half dozen 3-man tournies in Southern California, with team entries at $105 per team($35 a head), which included all day air.We had between 9 & 20 teams show every event. One was put on every other month. I never did any of the ad/marketing, so I dont really know what was involved on that end. But I coordinated the paint for the events, which FPO was $55-$65 case for Zap mid-grade paint.

Needless to say, the event made money. Not for me, I was just a volunteer who helped support by reffing, and by getting wholesale prices on the necessities for them.

Well, it was a combination of things I think.

1) I'm out in BFE. 150 miles from St Louis. Long drive for most teams.
2) The locals fear of competition. Anyone who wore a jersey instantly scared the hell out of anyone who lived in town. They simply refused to play because they'd get shot every game ( ).
3) The teams who did come wanted ridiculous prizes. I actually had a three man team ask why I wasn't giving away three Alias Timmys for first place instead of a "crappy" trophy and $200 (Never mind that the entry fee was almost nothing. Total cost to play was $20 per man plus paint, five games guaranteed).
4) We didn't tolerate cheating. Period. I posted the rules on the website and had three copies go out with every entry packet. They all knew what the rules were, and so did the refs. When a call went down that they didn't like, they screamed at me and I backed the ref's call, good or bad. One team did the "We're never coming back, we want our money back." thing, and I told them to walk. They shut up and played by the rules for the rest of the event. Didn't come back though.

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.

[geekwarrior]

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.

why can't there be people like you around my area, someone who is willing to put on a small local tourney...I'm not even interested in $$ prizes. It'd just be cool to enter and have some fun, and for $20 per man?! I pay that much to play at our fields anyways.

Rogue, how long ago was the tourney you mentioned, and are there plans to have it again?

[RogueFactor]

Well, it was a combination of things I think.

1) I'm out in BFE. 150 miles from St Louis. Long drive for most teams.
2) The locals fear of competition. Anyone who wore a jersey instantly scared the hell out of anyone who lived in town. They simply refused to play because they'd get shot every game ( ).
3) The teams who did come wanted ridiculous prizes. I actually had a three man team ask why I wasn't giving away three Alias Timmys for first place instead of a "crappy" trophy and $200 (Never mind that the entry fee was almost nothing. Total cost to play was $20 per man plus paint, five games guaranteed).
4) We didn't tolerate cheating. Period. I posted the rules on the website and had three copies go out with every entry packet. They all knew what the rules were, and so did the refs. When a call went down that they didn't like, they screamed at me and I backed the ref's call, good or bad. One team did the "We're never coming back, we want our money back." thing, and I told them to walk. They shut up and played by the rules for the rest of the event. Didn't come back though.

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.

Thats interesting. Similar events, differing results. Must be something in the nuances.

[RogueFactor]

why can't there be people like you around my area, someone who is willing to put on a small local tourney...I'm not even interested in $$ prizes. It'd just be cool to enter and have some fun, and for $20 per man?! I pay that much to play at our fields anyways.

Rogue, how long ago was the tourney you mentioned, and are there plans to have it again?

It was a few years ago(2?). It was held at Jungle Islands sister field(Adrenaline?), which has since closed and combined with Jungle Island.

I dont really know if its still being held. I helped to learn some of the in's & outs of the scene, see what the pitfalls were, etc. I think the guys who held it have since disbanded. They only did it to finance playing in regional tournaments.

[Old S.O.B.]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...

Here's the problem ... or a key part of it, anyway: While you are all correct in theory, the fact is that the established "Good 'Ol Boy" network is already very well entrenched and they own their teams - either outright or through their sponsorship and the threat of taking that sponsorship away.

Peer pressure is huge among teams and is also a serious problem that needs to be overcome. If you find a couple key teams that will buck the system and stick with you, others will follow. But, don't expect a huge turnout.

What PaintFest did was we had to literally bribe the teams. There was sooo much resistance and so much fear that we had to make it crazy not to attend the event. The objective of the "powers" was to insure that our event was unsuccessful. So, we had to accept what they were up to and provide so much incentive that, in spite of the threats and peer pressure, teams could not resist attending.

We also knew that the event had be flawless, because there were plenty of spys there looking for an excuse to call us a failure. And the spys latched on to the insurance company's mistake with the "Million Dollar" contest, because it was the only flaw in our event.

A revolution is a tough sell. Like Steve said, the NPPL was the closest we ever came to a revolution. That happened because the discontent was total. All the teams were fed up. But, the teams quit the fight before the war was won. Starting the NPPL was just the beginning. The teams went back to playing ball and had no desire to maintain a vigilant watch over the politics. Gradually, the "powers" inched their way into the rules committees and meetings, until they had a majority. While the foreplay took a while, the take over was swift. Steve and I and a few others were made to look like crazy conspiracy theorists. It was hard to hold a debate. People would agree with you in a one on one sit-down. But, when you got to the meetings for a vote, they did a complete 180 or they didn't show up.

People understood Steve's theories and goals. But, they were being convinced by others that it was "pie in the sky" and they were afraid to speak up in support of our ideas, when they stood in front of other teams with different agendas.

This revolution idea goes deeper than the teams. You have to trust your compadres. You need your sponsors, suppliers, judges and key teams all on board before you announce anything. If you can get them under contract - all the better. There will be leaks and spys - count on it! You need a solid plan and then you need a trusted team that shares your vision. They need to know the risk and be willing to take it.

They also need to be willing to accept a loss to establish a reputation. Not that there will be a loss. But, the fear of lossing money can't stop you, or you are done before you start. Right up to the end people thought we were going to short change PaintFest. But, we didn't. We knew what we were up against and we knew we would lose money. But, that's what it took. We proved our point and everyone got what they wanted from the event. Even then, it was not enough. In spite of the fact that after the event proved worthy of all the hype and the reviews were all good - the event, the format, the TV coverage was all good and everyone got paid top dollar, we still never put on another event. Like Steve said, 2 weeks later nobody returned our calls. The "'Ol Boys" succeeded in destroying yet another great potential for paintball.

The group here discussing this is a group of smart individuals with an eye towards achieving good things. But, we are a minority. Most people don't share our vision and don't like politics and most are afraid to fail. Statistically, only 1 in 20 is a natural leader. The other 19 have to be convinced. It's no different with labor unions or any other organized effort to self govern or stand up for the right to be heard. It's a very tough sell and you need more than talk to get it done. All the commitment and planning can't sustain a fight against big money, unless you can take that money out of the equasion with a strong determined group behind you and the independence to go it alone without the guarantee of cashing in big. Even with all that confidence, you can still fail - and that fear is what steals away your supporters, when you least expect them to disappear.

Hell, there could already be someone on this discussion board with alterior motives, or who is reporting to someone else that does not sympathise with any hypothesis to clean up the game or create a sport.

But, again, I digress and I'm babbling. Time for some shut-eye.

[CoolHand]

Thats interesting. Similar events, differing results. Must be something in the nuances.

I think it's mostly the demographics around here.

Very poor county (Maries County is the poorest in Missouri), with no fields for nearly a hundred miles in any direction.

The locals said they wanted something like this, so I put it on, and then they shat themselves and ran away like little girls.