Carry Concealed on College Campuses?

[maxama10]

Well, I think you have hit the nail on the head concerning ANY person carrying ANYWHERE. Not just in this situation.

I can see inherent dangers in allowing the average teenage college student carry around a firearm. Considering the fact that almost any adult aged person without certain criminal offenses can get a carry permit there are a lot of irrresponsible people carrying weapons, not just on campus.

Unless you are a criminal who cannot carry a weapon, who and how decides what individual IS responsible enough to carry a weapon?

If the same adult could carry a weapon elsewhere in "public" then why not on campus? We have certainly seen a need for it at times.

I just wanted to point out that it would only be a small portion of college students (and I'd assume that these are typically seniors, who should be more "adult" than the rest of the school) allowed to carry. As teenagers are not allowed to carry concealed.

[punkncat]

I just wanted to point out that it would only be a small portion of college students (and I'd assume that these are typically seniors, who should be more "adult" than the rest of the school) allowed to carry. As teenagers are not allowed to carry concealed.

True that, my bad.

[Coralis]

Honestly I dont think I would feel too safe knowing the guy sitting next to me that is failing out of school etc. possibly could be carrying a concealed handgun or two, whether I was carrying or not . Your mileage may differ.

[grEnAlEins]

I can see inherent dangers in allowing the average teenage college student carry around a firearm.
...
Unless you are a criminal who cannot carry a weapon, who and how decides what individual IS responsible enough to carry a weapon?

In every law that I've seen you need to be 21 to be eligible. I fail to see how the average teen anything, student or not, comes into play. You need to be 21 to acquire a handgun or ammunition, and 21 to own one in most places. Again, I fail to how these perceived dangers regarding teenage students are even remotely relevant.

Typically it is the CLEO (Chief of Police or County Sheriff) of a jurisdiction does this, but in some places the State Police manage the permits. The standards are typically codified in the Compiled Statutes/Laws of a particular state. It is hardly the willy-nilly decision that you seem to make it out to be. Most places do a fairly extensive background check and there is education and range time involved as well. In most places that I am aware of, the instructor has absolute authority to give someone the boot if there is a perceived maturity or responsibility issue.

EDIT: sorry, did not see the second page

[maxama10]

Your edit takes care of what I would have said about the first half.

However the second part, I do believe, applies very well to what Coralis has said.

Edit: Actually let me point it out quite clearly

Honestly I dont think I would feel too safe knowing the guy sitting next to me that is failing out of school etc. possibly could be carrying a concealed handgun or two, whether I was carrying or not . Your mileage may differ.

Typically it is the CLEO (Chief of Police or County Sheriff) of a jurisdiction does this, but in some places the State Police manage the permits. The standards are typically codified in the Compiled Statutes/Laws of a particular state. It is hardly the willy-nilly decision that you seem to make it out to be. Most places do a fairly extensive background check and there is education and range time involved as well. In most places that I am aware of, the instructor has absolute authority to give someone the boot if there is a perceived maturity or responsibility issue.

My thoughts, if this failing out of school student is so unstable that he would be willing to do something like you imply than he probably would have already made up his mind to do that. Therefore it really doesn't matter whether he can carry concealed legally or not, if he is going to do so he will, legal or illegal. The only thing the legality of it affects is the people who would carry legal, thusly preventing them from defending themselves/others, like VA Tech. Feel free to correct me but what you are implying is that you are afraid of unstable people who would act on a whim to shoot up a school if they were carrying legally?

I guess my mileage differs sir.

[Southpaw]

Honestly I dont think I would feel too safe knowing the guy sitting next to me that is failing out of school etc. possibly could be carrying a concealed handgun or two, whether I was carrying or not . Your mileage may differ.

I do find this line of thinking funny. FEEL SAFE

does the sign that says "XYZ University bans guns" make you feel safe?



EDIT SPELLING

[AirAssault]

CBI does the background check here in Colorado for CCW..... I think if I had any issues that would keep me from CCW they would find it. As far as some not feeling safe because someone in their classroom may be CC, that is bullocks. Bad guys don't have their CCW yet they have weapons.... does that make you feel safer? You think the kids that died at VT thought that morning "man I'm glad no one in my classroom can legally carry a firearm"? OR more likely when the firing started, did they wish "man I wish someone in this class had a gun and knew how to use it"..... I go with version #2.

Plus, if a person is CCW, you won't know it anyway.... That is what the first C stands for lol.

[grEnAlEins]

Your edit takes care of what I would have said about the first half.

However the second part, I do believe, applies very well to what Coralis has said.

Edit: Actually let me point it out quite clearly

Holy cow he snuck right in there didn't he? I did not even see that or I would have responded directly. Between him and someone else (do not remember who) in the other thread similar to this, I cannot keep up. Maybe I am getting too old for the intrawebz or maybe my term papers are an unneeded distraction from AO

And that is true. Laws only preemptively effect those who are inclined to follow it anyway. I think people have too much... I don't know if it is faith in or nativity regarding their fellow man. The truth is that there are people who are truly evil and do not have regard for others. These people are the ones who are not inclined to follow law to begin with. There are two quotes that I feel should be considered:

Here is a telling quote about gun control in America:

No, we are not looking at how to control criminals, we are talking about banning... semi-automatic guns.

Not only does virtually all evidence show that gun control is not effective crime control policy, but gun control proponents have made it clear that they really do not care about crime control, only disarmament of citizens. Coralis, you should do a bit of research. You'll find that those who lawfully have the right to carry and do so have a lesser propensity to commit crimes than those who do not. The crime rate among permit holders is lower than that of non-permit holders in all categories of criminality. CCW holders in FL are 300 times less likely to commit gun crimes than non-CCW holders (http://www.hoover.org/publications/p.../3574822.html). This general rule of diminished criminality among CCW holders is consistent across all states with a CCW law. A study conducted by the National Center for Policy Analysis found that Texas CCW holders are about 6 times less likely to commit a violent crime and 14 times less likely to commit a nonviolent crime than non CCW holders (http://www.arkansascca.org/blog/inde...t=detail&id=5). Some more points from that same source, which detail another study conducted by an economics professor from Yale, and was an 18 year study of roughly 3,000 counties in the US and conducted by show that:

- CCW permit holders are virtually never involved in the commission of any crime, much less murder
- Since 1997, 30% of all school shootings have been stopped by a citizen using a firearm.
- States without CCW laws account for 90% of the incidents, deaths, and injuries from public mass shootings
- States enacting CCW laws have seen an average reduction of 78% in deaths and injuries from mass shootings.
- States with less restrictive CCW laws have seen the greatest reduction in attacks, deaths, and injuries from mass shootings.
- Limiting the places where permit holders are allowed to carry increases the overall number of attacks, deaths, and injuries in those prohibited areas.
- The only firearm law that reduces public mass shootings is the enactment of CCW laws.
- Laws that limit the purchase of firearms (one-a-month, waiting periods, certain gun prohibited purchases) in fact, increase the overall number of public mass shootings.

If you examine the cold hard facts and put your feelings aside, you will see that your fears are largely unjustified. I mean no disrespect to you Coralis, but I really do not understand where you get your fear of law abiding citizens who happen to have an inanimate object hitching a ride on their hip/ankle/underarm/etc.

Also, here is a list of the requirements to get a CCW permit in TN: http://www.state.tn.us/safety/handgu...ifications.htm
This is consistent with most places that I am aware of. You have to be highly non-criminal to even qualify for a permit. Again, I tend to argue that your fear is largely unjustified in the case of a law allowing CCW holder to carry. There is a much higher risk that a non-CCW holder will be a greater threat to you. You should be more worried about the people that do not hold a valid CCW permit. They are far more likely to do you harm according to the vast majority of data that I have seen.

As for the second quote, it is an interesting analogy that should be considered:

Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater.

[Coralis]

If you examine the cold hard facts and put your feelings aside, you will see that your fears are largely unjustified. I mean no disrespect to you Coralis, but I really do not understand where you get your fear of law abiding citizens who happen to have an inanimate object hitching a ride on their hip/ankle/underarm/etc.


From the fact that while in the Navy. I had a M16 pointed in my face during a security incident and at another time during a security incident (Jaguar or Security alert is the official name) a marine came tearing through the mess decks and tripped his M-16 flying through the air and landing about a half a foot from me from after hitting the deck and cartwheeling 3 or 4 times. Second my father was shot when I was younger when we lived in Detroit and a few years later our house was broken into and nothing was taken except the "house protection" weapons. And lastly I live out in the country and people like to shoot out here well one of my neighbors was shooting a his dirt mound targets when he hit a piece of rock and the bullet skipped up and put a nice little hole in my roof.

[maxama10]

From the fact that while in the Navy. I had a M16 pointed in my face during a security incident and at another time during a security incident (Jaguar or Security alert is the official name) a marine came tearing through the mess decks and tripped his M-16 flying through the air and landing about a half a foot from me from after hitting the deck and cartwheeling 3 or 4 times. Second my father was shot when I was younger when we lived in Detroit and a few years later our house was broken into and nothing was taken except the "house protection" weapons. And lastly I live out in the country and people like to shoot out here well one of my neighbors was shooting a his dirt mound targets when he hit a piece of rock and the bullet skipped up and put a nice little hole in my roof.

So, Navy, private citizen... comparison

eh...?

Father, how did this happen? Relevant to concealed carry?

Your guns were stolen so I shouldn't carry concealed?

The last statement and everything else would lead me to believe you think our guns need to be confiscated? Also, I still fail to understand the relevance of concealed carry here.

All in all I do not understand your thought process? Either I need more information or ...?

[grEnAlEins]

From the fact that while in the Navy. I had a M16 pointed in my face during a security incident and at another time during a security incident (Jaguar or Security alert is the official name) a marine came tearing through the mess decks and tripped his M-16 flying through the air and landing about a half a foot from me from after hitting the deck and cartwheeling 3 or 4 times.

Were either of these concealed at any point in time? If so, in addition to a kick in the arse for not controlling muzzle direction, someone needs a medal for ingenuity if they were able to conceal that bad-boy! I know it is not totally the same, but every AR-15, AR-10, AR-180, or similar that I've seen cannot be readily concealed in my opinion. Maybe having the barrel be an inch and a hald shorter in the military makes a bigger difference tahtn I would think though. Also I was wondering where a law abiding private citizen fits into the picture.

Second my father was shot when I was younger when we lived in Detroit

I am truly sorry that this happened. I do not really understand the point that are making about law abiding citizens private citizens and the ability to carry though. It sounds like this occurred because of a criminal to me... I could be wrong though. Did the shooter have a CCW permit? I highly doubt it. How does legal ownership and use of firearms relate to this incident?

and a few years later our house was broken into and nothing was taken except the "house protection" weapons.

That sucks. Home invasions can be quite difficult to deal with, and highly stressful. I am sorry for you. Also it sounds to me like the actions of a criminal seems to be the primary issue here. The problem is a home invader and thief. Was the invader a law abiding citizen or the holder of CCW permit? Of that, I am doubtful. The issue is the criminal.

And lastly I live out in the country and people like to shoot out here well one of my neighbors was shooting a his dirt mound targets when he hit a piece of rock and the bullet skipped up and put a nice little hole in my roof.

It sounds like your neighbor is an idiot. I fail to see how this is relevant to all people though. I would have no problem with guy being precluded from a permit because all evidence that I have seen suggests that he tends to be careless. Precluding all people from a permit because your neighbor--or any other single individual--is a doofus does not quite make sense to me. I'm sorry about the damage to your roof, but I fail to see how your stupid/careless neighbor is relevant or comparable to all people.

[Coralis]

Basically until you have had a gun shoved in your face i guess you cant relate then. And no I don't think that guns should be confiscated. If you want to have a gun for hunting or protecting your house/car fine but I just don't think that they should be carried around in public places like its the old west . You can state all the statistics you want but I basically I don't have the highest opinion of the human race in general and if it comes down to a fight id rather be in a fist fight than a gun fight. Anyway I'm not going to change anyone's mind and you aren't going to change mine either.


not that it matters but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

[grEnAlEins]

Basically until you have had a gun shoved in your face i guess you cant relate then. And no I don't think that guns should be confiscated. If you want to have a gun for hunting or protecting your house/car fine but I just don't think that they should be carried around in public places like its the old west . You can state all the statistics you want but I basically I don't have the highest opinion of the human race in general and if it comes down to a fight id rather be in a fist fight than a gun fight. Anyway I'm not going to change anyone's mind and you aren't going to change mine either.

So if a criminal approached you with a gun you would want to use your fists? Criminals do not obey the law by definition. Why would they forgo carrying a weapon due to a law? I fail to see the logic here.

I do not have a high opinion of people in general either. This is why I want the right to protect myself in public. The police have no legal duty to protect me from my fellow man, therefore I should have the right and do have duty to protect myself.

I ed at that "all those statistics" comment. You can show me all of the evidence you want, but I will not acknowledge any of it. Awesome.

So you do not think that people should be able to engage in an activity that is shown to reduce crime? Why is that? That just goes to show you that gun control advocates really do not care about crime control. Also the "old west" analogy is not exactly apt when you look at actual occurrences. When all the facts are against you, conjure up fear using false imagery. Brilliant!

[Coralis]

So if a criminal approached you with a gun you would want to use your fists? Criminals do not obey the law by definition. Why would they forgo carrying a weapon due to a law? I fail to see the logic here.


So the next time a criminal comes up to you and stick a gun in your face or back your going to do what ? ask him to give you a couple of secs so you can pull your own gun. Why would hey forgo their advantage ? i fail to see the logic here.


I ed at that "all those statistics" comment. You can show me all of the evidence you want, but I will not acknowledge any of it. Awesome.

So you do not think that people should be able to engage in an activity that is shown to reduce crime? Why is that? That just goes to show you that gun control advocates really do not care about crime control. Also the "old west" analogy is not exactly apt when you look at actual occurrences. When all the facts are against you, conjure up fear using false imagery. Brilliant!


ok what first world country has the highest rate of violent crime, Ill give you a hint were in it , it also has the highest rate of gun ownership .

[grEnAlEins]

So the next time a criminal comes up to you and stick a gun in your face or back your going to do what ? ask him to give you a couple of secs so you can pull your own gun. Why would hey forgo their advantage ? i fail to see the logic here.

I never said that, but I certainly like my odds better with a firearm. I did not say that they would forgo the advantage, but I would have a better chance of defending myself with a weapon. Also, if others had a concealed weapon and were nearby then they could render assistance. This is not unheard of. Having a concealed weapon would not make me any more unsafe in that situation.