Carry Concealed on College Campuses?

[Lohman446]

Some people are equating allowing CCW holders to carry with allowing everyone to carry. The fact of the matter is I doubt the percentage would be any higher on a campus than anywhere else, I would be willing to bet it would actually be lower.

CCW holders are, generally, far less likely to commit a violent crime

http://www.lesjones.com/posts/004329.shtml

BTW - those standards are very similiar to other states, at least MI

[Coralis]

Wasn't the VT shooter a licensed gun dealer and law abiding citizen until the day he snapped ??

[grEnAlEins]

Wasn't the VT shooter a licensed gun dealer and law abiding citizen until the day he snapped ??

What is your source on that?

I happen to know that he did have a history of minor criminality and some violence. He was also committed to non-voluntary psychiatric care twice. He was certainly not law abiding though, so there goes the claim that he might have been a law abiding citizen. Also, I believe he was a resident alien, but I do not recall.

I highly doubt he was a gun dealer.

EDIT: He was not. He made retail purchases. A licensed dealer would not do this as there would be no need. He was also not a citizen, but a permanent resident alien.

Also, V-Tech just goes to show that waiting periods do not work. He waited the 30 days on both handgun purchases (again something that dealers are not required to do). Also the handgun purchases were in violation of law and thus they not legally purchased due to his involuntary psychiatric care. He failed to disclose that on his paperwork, a clear violation of law. The background check failed to turn this up due to an "undisclosed flaw."

Really man, you could not try to find information before posting something like that? I found this information that puts down the claim of law abiding, citizen, and dealer in about two minutes.

[Destructo6]

....fights when people happen to be carrying weapons have a higher chance of leading to serious injury/death.

How do you figure? Are you projecting your own fault onto others?

I carry a firearm 24/7 and about the last thing I want to do is shoot somebody with it.

[Hilltop Customs]

my own faults? yeah, I forgot I go around starting fights and looking to shoot people

No one said anything about wanting to shoot someone, I was simply saying people make stupid decisions in heated situations. I wasnt saying every person who has a gun who happens into a stressful situation will draw. But its not always the permit holder that gets their hands on the weapon either. Even the low chance of those types of incidents happening, they would still produce much higher casualties than school rampage shootings.....which was the whole basis of the article accompanying the poll.

I agree with CCW, I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed on campuses. I just dont agree with using school shootings as a justification for CCW on campuses. You hear shots ring out and you are carrying; are you going to run to the shots to protect people? This article puts the ability of CCW to protect the people on campus above every other response, saying nothing is enough to protect us.....and the only thing we need protected from is our own fear.

[grEnAlEins]

my own faults? yeah, I forgot I go around starting fights and looking to shoot people

No one said anything about wanting to shoot someone, I was simply saying people make stupid decisions in heated situations. I wasnt saying every person who has a gun who happens into a stressful situation will draw. But its not always the permit holder that gets their hands on the weapon either. Even the low chance of those types of incidents happening, they would still produce much higher casualties than school rampage shootings.....which was the whole basis of the article accompanying the poll.

I agree with CCW, I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed on campuses. I just dont agree with using school shootings as a justification for CCW on campuses. You hear shots ring out and you are carrying; are you going to run to the shots to protect people? This article puts the ability of CCW to protect the people on campus above every other response, saying nothing is enough to protect us.....and the only thing we need protected from is our own fear.

He never said you do. He said that you seem to think that people will be more violent if armed. You must be basing this on something. There is no valid statistical data indicative of your claim. According you your statement a given person would have a greater propensity for violence if armed. Are you not a person? You also did not address the fact that a CCW holder is far less likely to be involved in a fight in the first place. Because there is little/no factual basis for this statement, and the statement must be based on something, it is a fair question to ask whether this is based on a projection.

All valid data on the subject suggests drastically decreased levels of violence where the right to carry is allowed. People who do carry, as I posted (way) above, are roughly 300 times less likely to engage in gun crime and far less likely to be violent in general. Also with regard to higher casualties in a shooting rampage, the facts are inconsistent with this claim. Between 1997 and when the article I cited above was published, 30% of attempted mass shootings in the US were thwarted be private citizens. It should be noted that private citizens did not have the ability to act in the majority of situations due to lack of ability legal defend themselves in all locations. The vast majority of "successful" shootings were completed in areas where carry is not allowed. How does your claim of a higher death toll explain this fact? Also the risks of a person taking a concealed weapon from a valid permit holder are beyond negligible and far outweighed by the proven potential for great benefit to personal overall public safety.

Why don't you agree? 30% of... you get the idea. Yes, many people would attempt to swiftly rectify the situation. In fact, many do come to the aid of others. I would certainly be inclined to do so. Who can respond faster, an armed citizen already on site and near the incident, or a cop on the other side of campus? Does it not make sense that a slower response might yield a higher death toll? Alright FDR, sorry to say it, but we do have more to fear than fear itself. Being scared of a mentally/emotionally disturbed individual trying to kill you is perfectly valid. It might even aide human survival, which is the reason we have the capacity for fear. Being afraid of a law abiding, sane, qualified individual in possession of an inanimate object is not quite as valid, at least in my eyes.

[Southpaw]

I have always loved this quote

"When seconds count the police are only minutes away"

[Hilltop Customs]

I agree that having a small(normal) % of people with CCW's could make schools even safer, but advertising that campus is unsafe is wrong. Advertising that the only capable protection is a CCW will just make more people without proper experience interested in CCW's. You dont see a problem with that?

Violence has nothing to do with what I'm saying....I'm talking about accidents. Any time a gun leaves a holster there is a chance(small) that an accident will happen. I believe more CCW weapon holders with less than average experience will lead to more accidents, especially if they choose to run into a situation like a shooting or show the weapon to stop a situation that doesnt require it(the fight situation).

CCW should be allowed on campus, but the type of crap put forth in this article shouldnt be in the news.

[grEnAlEins]

I agree that having a small(normal) % of people with CCW's could make schools even safer, but advertising that campus is unsafe is wrong. Advertising that the only capable protection is a CCW will just make more people without proper experience interested in CCW's. You dont see a problem with that?

Violence has nothing to do with what I'm saying....I'm talking about accidents. Any time a gun leaves a holster there is a chance(small) that an accident will happen. I believe more CCW weapon holders with less than average experience will lead to more accidents, especially if they choose to run into a situation like a shooting or show the weapon to stop a situation that doesnt require it(the fight situation).

CCW should be allowed on campus, but the type of crap put forth in this article shouldnt be in the news.

I honestly do not. I have faith that my County Sheriff, who is a very nice man by the way, will eliminate the lackies from the running, trim the proverbial CCW fat, so to speak. I have no problem with increased interest or applications though, no.

Accidents involving injuries and firearms are often crimes. Also the improper use scenario is extremely rare, far more rare than proper use. You are right about inexperienced people, but the fact is that in most states there is at least some training involved. In many cases there should be much more, but it is at least something. I am not saying that everyone should be allowed a permit without any oversight. I am saying that there should be a set level of qualification and a shall issue law.

[Lohman446]

I honestly do not. I have faith that my County Sheriff, who is a very nice man by the way, will eliminate the lackies from the running, trim the proverbial CCW fat, so to speak. I have no problem with increased interest or applications though, no.

Accidents involving injuries and firearms are often crimes. Also the improper use scenario is extremely rare, far more rare than proper use. You are right about inexperienced people, but the fact is that in most states there is at least some training involved. In many cases there should be much more, but it is at least something. I am not saying that everyone should be allowed a permit without any oversight. I am saying that there should be a set level of qualification and a shall issue law.

While I agree that the laws should be shall issue (as too may people have proven in the past that may issues does not mean they have to issue any at all) one has to worry about the other side of it. In a shall issue law the power of that county sherrif is minimalized.

[Pneumagger]

I've long held there should be two classes of CCW. A general license like we have now and an advanced license. The advanced license would have a more rigorous background search, be shall issue, require firearm competency that demonstrates advanced handling and very good marksmanship skills, increase penalties for CCW legal infractions, and requires annual qualifications. Basically, make it a civilian CHL that parallels an LEO's CHL qualification. With this new license, one could carry in schools, bars, post offices, and other currently prohibited places. Think of it as a "super-CCW" that challenges most casual gun owners to qualify. For example, most states have drivers licenses that have different levels of endorsements and qualifications (CDL, hazmat, motorcycle...) an this would be no different.

[Lohman446]

I've long held there should be two classes of CCW. A general license like we have now and an advanced license. The advanced license would have a more rigorous background search, be shall issue, require firearm competency that demonstrates advanced handling and very good marksmanship skills, increase penalties for CCW legal infractions, and requires annual qualifications. Basically, make it a civilian CHL that parallels an LEO's CHL qualification. With this new license, one could carry in schools, bars, post offices, and other currently prohibited places. Think of it as a "super-CCW" that challenges most casual gun owners to qualify. For example, most states have drivers licenses that have different levels of endorsements and qualifications (CDL, hazmat, motorcycle...) an this would be no different.

Why not just institute a "volunteer" deputy program that gives the same thing and requires XX amount of hours service per year. This would give the police departments direct work with the individuals on a regular basis and help alleviate staff issues at major "crowd" events.

[Southpaw]

Why not just institute a "volunteer" deputy program that gives the same thing and requires XX amount of hours service per year. This would give the police departments direct work with the individuals on a regular basis and help alleviate staff issues at major "crowd" events.

Great idea and you could "volunteer" to pick up garbage on the streets or fill potholes to get your drivers licence and if you want the fire department to put a fire out at your house you could "volunteer" to do that too. I think we have found a way to fix all of our problems.

[Lohman446]

Great idea and you could "volunteer" to pick up garbage on the streets or fill potholes to get your drivers licence and if you want the fire department to put a fire out at your house you could "volunteer" to do that too. I think we have found a way to fix all of our problems.

I bring it as an idea because it is the "work around" employed by some people. Well the work around is simply to get a deputies card (which gives you access to government buildings too).

[Pneumagger]

I don't believe places should have to be forced to aloow concealed carry on the premesis.
However, if a place prohibits concealed carry then adequete protection and limited/screened accessibility must be provided to ensure patron safety.