Carry Concealed on College Campuses?

[Southpaw]

All concealed and carry would do is escalate the level of crime, Cause the idea behind concealed and carry is that criminals won't commit a crime if the don't know who has a concealed weapon. But the truth is you would just see violent crime increace cause instead of just being robbed you will now be robbed and probly shot due to the fear of a victum shooting back at them after the stick up.

This is just my 2 cents though from a Criminal justice major.

good night all.

Shooting a robber AFTER the "stick up" will get you thrown in jail because there was longer a threat to your life.

[Ruler_Mark]

Shooting a robber AFTER the "stick up" will get you thrown in jail because there was longer a threat to your life.

Not in florida! if you feel threatened at all you can use deadly force on your property and be a ok.

[Lohman446]

I think the "good samaritan shot by police" scenario is way overblown. MOST of the time police officers do not even take the shot when it is justified. I think it much MORE LIKELY that the police would identify themselves and give the good samaritan holding the weapon a chance to "surrender" before taking the shot. Is it possible the good samaritan might be shot? Sure, there are guns involved. I just don't take it as the likely outcome, in fact I would think it would be the exception.

Too many people seem to have accepted it as the only possible outcome. While a chance I would not bet on it.

At least my CCW classes covered the strategic and legal areas involving "no surprise shots". Legally I have to make every reasonable attempt to give an attacker a chance to or force them to surrender with less force (brandishment / assault) before taking a shot. If given the opportunity in a reasonable manner I must inform the attacker A) I am armed B) I have called the police and C) I will shoot before taking the shot. Granted its given the reasonable opportunity and reasonable is hard to identify. It puts me at a serious strategic disadvantage. Luckily I have gone through far more training than the average attacker.

[Lohman446]

Not in florida! if you feel threatened at all you can use deadly force on your property and be a ok.

Its not if you feel threatened its if a reasonable person (as defined by a jury) would feel threatened.

[bryceeden]

I think the "good samaritan shot by police" scenario is way overblown. MOST of the time police officers do not even take the shot when it is justified. I think it much MORE LIKELY that the police would identify themselves and give the good samaritan holding the weapon a chance to "surrender" before taking the shot. Is it possible the good samaritan might be shot? Sure, there are guns involved. I just don't take it as the likely outcome, in fact I would think it would be the exception.

Too many people seem to have accepted it as the only possible outcome. While a chance I would not bet on it.

At least my CCW classes covered the strategic and legal areas involving "no surprise shots". Legally I have to make every reasonable attempt to give an attacker a chance to or force them to surrender with less force (brandishment / assault) before taking a shot. If given the opportunity in a reasonable manner I must inform the attacker A) I am armed B) I have called the police and C) I will shoot before taking the shot. Granted its given the reasonable opportunity and reasonable is hard to identify. It puts me at a serious strategic disadvantage. Luckily I have gone through far more training than the average attacker.

You're thinking Patrol Cop, I'm talking SWAT and taking into account that shots have been fired and people have been hit. At that point if they go in and see someone pointing a gun towards another person the person(AKA the real shooter or whatever) I agree its not supper likely, but its the possiblity of it happening that scares me because it could and most likely would ruin a good cops life. For example Kenneth Hammond in the Trolly Square mall shooting in SLC Utah, he went hunting the shooter, it was definatly the right choice and he made all the difference. But he had the forsight to have his wife call the police and tell them what he was doing and what he was wearing. Even at that he said he was afraid SWAT would shoot him by mistake. Like I said I think I'd have to side with CCW on campus but the students carrying need to be made aware of the possiblity that if they act they could be mistaken for the shooter.

[Lohman446]

You're thinking Patrol Cop, I'm talking SWAT and taking into account that shots have been fired and people have been hit. At that point if they go in and see someone pointing a gun towards another person the person(AKA the real shooter or whatever) I agree its not supper likely, but its the possiblity of it happening that scares me because it could and most likely would ruin a good cops life. For example Kenneth Hammond in the Trolly Square mall shooting in SLC Utah, he went hunting the shooter, it was definatly the right choice and he made all the difference. But he had the forsight to have his wife call the police and tell them what he was doing and what he was wearing. Even at that he said he was afraid SWAT would shoot him by mistake. Like I said I think I'd have to side with CCW on campus but the students carrying need to be made aware of the possiblity that if they act they could be mistaken for the shooter.

I'm not blind to the possibility I simply beleive the likelihood is WAY overstated. Yes, I would take every reasonable and prudent step to help assure it did not happen but I still think the likelihood is overstated.

It also assumes that I would take the responsibility of "hunting the shooter". This may sound egotistical but I have said it was my responsibility to assure the safety of my family. I am not the police. I am not equipped as the police nor do I have a level of coordination and coordinated training with them. *IF* my family is present and I am in a strategically defensible position I am not leaving it, you are on your own.

*IF* my family is not present and I have a situation that makes "hunting the shooter" strategically reliable than I may in fact do so. Yes, I will hope that I can have someone reliable call into the police with as much information as possible. However, I am not going to walk with my gun fully up, it will be in a downward ready position. If I am hunting the shooter it is because I beleive they are shooting randomnly and I would like to blend in with others as much as possible. There is a good chance they are using something far more effective than a pistol after all. It also presents a far less "threatening" position to responding officers.

[bryceeden]

I get what you're saying and alot of it is my SWAT training being transposed apon others. If I'm hunting a shooter my gun will be up so when I picture others thats how I picture them being. Its also why I never really consider the fact that most people would probably stay put in a safe place, I wrongly assume that everyone would go after the shooter. My odds of being wrongfully shot in a situation like that are higher then yours probably are, I have a hard time not thinking of myself as the norm even though I pretty well know that I'm not.

[michbich]

Does the risk of CCw in school outweight the risk of not having firearms at all? I don't know. There is only one way to find out. I don't have tv so I don't know when there was the last school shooting. As far as i know, taking into concideration the large amount of schools, shootings happen very rarely.

If we extrapolate this into airplanes just for fun, would it actualy make them safer? Concidering their very low incident rate, would having the right to carry firearms onboard make the flight safer?

[bryceeden]

Does the risk of CCw in school outweight the risk of not having firearms at all? I don't know. There is only one way to find out. I don't have tv so I don't know when there was the last school shooting. As far as i know, taking into concideration the large amount of schools, shootings happen very rarely.

If we extrapolate this into airplanes just for fun, would it actualy make them safer? Concidering their very low incident rate, would having the right to carry firearms onboard make the flight safer?

As has been said before, around 30% of mass shootings are stopped by people with a weapon. Airplanes think of it this way, on 9/11 if someone had noticed what was going on and put down the highjacker how different would things have been?

[Lohman446]

I get what you're saying and alot of it is my SWAT training being transposed apon others. If I'm hunting a shooter my gun will be up so when I picture others thats how I picture them being. Its also why I never really consider the fact that most people would probably stay put in a safe place, I wrongly assume that everyone would go after the shooter. My odds of being wrongfully shot in a situation like that are higher then yours probably are, I have a hard time not thinking of myself as the norm even though I pretty well know that I'm not.

I also live in a very small town . The closest SWAT team is going to have at least half an hour of travel time to get to most of the locations I frequent. 90% of the local police know me on sight and I would like to think would appraise a situation with mutliple gun men as me being the "good guy". I don't expect to be involved in hunting the shooter with protracted gun play and frankly am betting on resolving the situation before the police have put themselves in a position to "storm" the area.

As wrong as it may sound I understand that my hunting the shooter may actually get in the way of law enforcement personal and cause both myself and them undue danger. I would not be inclined to act as law enforcement in the protecting of others except in a very rapid capacity (ie in the direct vicinity of a gunman firing repeated shots at "random targets). My first instinct and training if the threat is not imminent to me or my family is retreat. If the shooter has quit taking shots it is not my duty to arrest or hold them, and revealing my armed status likely places myself and others in unnecesary danger.

Its different training / theory of survival. You are trained and prepared to act as a law enforcement officer (it sounds). I am not, in fact part of my training is a reminder that I am not. That being said there are a few situations where I may take that role. This type of situation is not one of them.

[Pneumagger]

This thread is TL;DR

Knowledge is power. And universities are the most powerful places out there.
Therefore, I think we need to realize guns have no place in an acedemic environment.

Knowing is half the battle

[Lohman446]

Does the risk of CCw in school outweight the risk of not having firearms at all? I don't know. There is only one way to find out. I don't have tv so I don't know when there was the last school shooting. As far as i know, taking into concideration the large amount of schools, shootings happen very rarely.

If we extrapolate this into airplanes just for fun, would it actualy make them safer? Concidering their very low incident rate, would having the right to carry firearms onboard make the flight safer?

But airplanes are (for the most part) a controlled environment. There are very few incidences of firearms being illegally on board. There are also distinct strategic issues involving the structure of the airplane itself that makes civilian carry more questionable. That being said I routinely carry on an airplane, its simply privately owned.

[Lohman446]

A point regarding "civilians" acting as officers:

I know some areas that train off duty officers to simply act as observers in any situation that is not posing a direct and imminent threat. Its based on a statistic that I expect some law enforcement officers will be aware of:

How often in a non-random crime are one of the "civilians" present actually an armed accomplice watching the back of the obvious assailant(s)?

[bryceeden]

Its different training / theory of survival. You are trained and prepared to act as a law enforcement officer (it sounds). I am not, in fact part of my training is a reminder that I am not. That being said there are a few situations where I may take that role. This type of situation is not one of them.

Actually mine too, I'm a tactical medic not a cop. I work for SWAT(TRT actually but same thing)and am trained to function as an operator if I have to, but if I ever fire a shot on a mission something went very very wrong(basically an officer went down). But I have still been trained and to a degree brainwashed that its my job to save people and if I heard shots in a mall, school, or whatever my instinct would be to go fix it. Its funny to say, but my brain kind of turns off(changes modes is probably better wording) and operates strictly on training of what I have to do. Assuming that students would lock down and protect the room they are in instead of going after the shooter I am absolutly for on campus CCW.

[warbeak2099]

I personally was enraged after hearing about the Vtech incident and that there were 32 students and faculty members who had CCP's and were not allowed to carry their weapons on them that day. As a student, I feel like I am being made to be a walking target by the government (state of course) and my school's administration.

Most people who are against CCP on campus' don't understand the fact that people with CCP's are law abiding citizens with the intent of protecting themselves and those around them. They are not Rambo wannabe's waiting for the chance to frag some tangos. I'd rather be in class next to a law abiding citizen who has gone through classes and spent money to obtain his/her right to protect me, than some psychopath wacko who is going to get the gun regardless of the law.

Restricting CCP's on campus isn't going to make anyone safer. The bad guy is going to get his gun anyways, and he sure as hell isn't going to obtain a CCP to be able to carry it.