Anyone see the case against iraq on TV?

[battlegroup]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh


If we attack ANY nation without showing significant proof, we become the terrorists... (not saying we don't have proof on Iraq... just that there are peaceful ways to resolve some things...)

The problem is if the government shows the proof other than what they have showed, which I feel is good enough, the people and means in which we obtained the proof will go away. I choose to trust our government in THIS respect.

I understand the international community wants proof as well and we are releasing it a little at a time until enough has come out that they agree with us. But I don't thinks it's necessary to have the world unanimously agree. If France and other countries don't want to be involved so be it!

I think it's past the time when we should say "Enough". He has violated all the sanctions against him over and over again and it is in the best interest of the international community for him to be removed.

[shartley]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
Ok. The first time the Inspectors were in Iraq, they were doing their job great. Iraq had violated a no-fly zone (or something like that) and the US told the inspetors to get out because we were going to start bombing. Since 1998 when the US told them to leave, there were no inspectors there. I'm not sure how long it takes to rebuild a WMD program, but I'm guessing in 4 years you can get a good start.

That was not the whole story. They did not leave ONLY because the US told them to get out. Why would they? The US does not control the UN or its Inspectors. Iraq was preventing the inspectors from inspecting things, holding them up, and playing many of the same games that they are playing now. I think you should go back and read up on what really happened back then.

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
So if we commit more inspectors and give them more time, what will happen? I'm guessing one of two things. Either they will find EVERYTHING the US has said they are hiding (looks like the US knows about it already, but for one reason or another doesn't give it), or they will make it impossible for research on these weapons to continue.

Now for those who say that the US already has evidence, why should the inspectors need more... well... I say that any evidence provided by the Inspectors will undoubtedly have greater sway in the UN then evidence the US produces... just my opinion on that. We would be able to sway countries like France and Russia.... wait wait, I know what your saying now "why do we NEED to sway those countries." We don't. Hell, we could make Iraq a glass bottom floor whenever we feel like it, but if we go over UN's authority and resolutions, how does that make us better then Iraq?

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
If Iraq has to continually hide the weapons from visits, I don't think they will be able to get work done on them, plus it might be pretty stupid of them to even try to conduct research while the inspectors are in the country.

LOL That is silly. The UN Inspectors job is not to delay or somehow impede the development of or stockpiling of these weapons. And on that way of thinking, as soon as they leave, the work begins full tilt. So, what do we do? Keep Inspectors roaming around Iraq indefinitely? LOL Again, this is just silly.

[Koosh]

I feel bad... Shartley was laughing too much at my replies

I HATE BEING WRONG ALL THE TIME!!! heh... this is an old news article I pulled up... and as usual... I was wrong...

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9811/11/iraq.02/

I admit defeat... for now...(cue maniacal laughter...)

[cphilip]

Did Sharley just call someone a "Tool"!

That one had double meaning didn't it? :)

[madgoat33]

Um u said not to go political......the fact of the matter bud is that this is political and unless i said anything illegal or profane u really shouldnt' be editing my posts......JMO

[Collegeboy]

To answer the question above about the hypocrisy with not wanting a war and wanting to stop terrorism. I don't see that is hypocrisy. You can never fight terrorism by dropping bombs. IN fact it only increases terrorism. By going in and forcefully removing someone who I feel has very thin connections to Al Queda, you will be increasing terrorism not decreasing it.

To fight terrorism you have to realize that bombs will not do it. Terrorism is a state of mind, deal with the reasons why the people feel they way they do, that is the only way to stop terrorism

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
To answer the question above about the hypocrisy with not wanting a war and wanting to stop terrorism. I don't see that is hypocrisy. You can never fight terrorism by dropping bombs. IN fact it only increases terrorism. By going in and forcefully removing someone who I feel has very thin connections to Al Queda, you will be increasing terrorism not decreasing it.

To fight terrorism you have to realize that bombs will not do it. Terrorism is a state of mind, deal with the reasons why the people feel they way they do, that is the only way to stop terrorism

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by shartley

Uhm Shartley, hate to be the one to point out your errors but.....
According to the Bureau of Justice, violent crime is WAY down...
heres the link..
Violent Crime


JDub

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious


Uhm Shartley, hate to be the one to point out your errors but.....
According to the Bureau of Justice, violent crime is WAY down...
heres the link..
Violent Crime


JDub

Note: The violent crimes included are rape, robbery, aggravated and simple assault,
and homicide. The National Crime Victimization Survey redesign was implemented in 1993; the area with the lighter shading is before the redesign and the darker area after the redesign. The data before 1993 are adjusted to make them comparable with data collected since the redesign. The adjustment methods are described in Criminal Victimization 1973-95. Estimates for 1993 and beyond are based on collection year while earlier estimates are based on data year. For additional information about the methods used, see Criminal Victimization 2001.

Sources: Rape, robbery, and assault data are from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). Ongoing since 1972, this survey of households interviews about 80,000 persons age 12 and older in 43,000 households twice each year about their victimizations from crime. The homicide data are collected by the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) from reports from law enforcement agencies.

[battlegroup]

I agree with Shartley

Crime numbers are so manipulated to make it look like they are coming down that they are unreliable. You need to look at raw numbers of violent crimes across the country not some survey or data from an angency whose job it is to reduce crime.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by madgoat33
Um u said not to go political......the fact of the matter bud is that this is political and unless i said anything illegal or profane u really shouldnt' be editing my posts......JMO

Well my Friend this whole discussion is in violation of the rules. However I have decided to allow some of it as long as it stays friendly and on the subject. Calling the President of the United States a Imperialistic Dictator went off topic for the thread and threatened to end up with it closed. And if you repeat it then I will delete it. Stay to the topic or risk me not allowing these debates. I will reserve the right to enforce the rules.

Read the rules. I do not have to allow this topic at all. Least of all allow it to deteriorate into a slander of the President. I suggest you read the topic and stay with that. You opinions of the President are not part of that. And you are entitled to them but you do not have the right to express them here on this thread. You may go to any political forum you wish and do so. I will relax the rules as long as something stays civil. But once I see they may not I will remove anything I feel is going to end up closing the thread for all the others participating and enjoying it. That is my Job.

I am not here to protect your liberities and freedoms. In fact try posting that in Iraq and see how long you are alive! This is a private site and your joining it subjects you to the rules. And yes, that is censorship so don't go whining about it. And you will have to live with my judgement on that. I will do my best to allow open and free expression on the subject of the thread. But I will not allow it to drift off base to far. The subject was "Did you see the case against Iraq on TV" and what do you think of that? Not how you feel about the President.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by shartley

Actually a better point is that studies are only valid when they give you the answers *you* are looking for...

Just admit that you were wrong in your statement that the crime rate hasnt gone down. Because it has. (poor data collection techniques or not) I can see it with my own eyes. (at least in So Cal where i live)

Arent you someone who says we need to trust our government? Why must we trust what they say in one issue but not another?

As for the reasons for the lowered crime rate...there is no one reason. Most likely a combination of harsh penalties and a good economy (the 90's at least)..(i can site studys but we all know how biased and inaccurate those can be)



JDub

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
Actually a better point is that studies are only valid when they give you the answers *you* are looking for...

Just admit that you were wrong in your statement that the crime rate hasnt gone down. Because it has. (poor data collection techniques or not) I can see it with my own eyes. (at least in So Cal where i live)

Arent you someone who says we need to trust our government? Why must we trust what they say in one issue but not another?

As for the reasons for the lowered crime rate...there is no one reason. Most likely a combination of harsh penalties and a good economy (the 90's at least)..(i can site studys but we all know how biased and inaccurate those can be)



JDub

[Collegeboy]

So how is dropping bombs going to end terrorism?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
So how is dropping bombs going to end terrorism?