Anyone see the case against iraq on TV?

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

?

Answer my question if you wish. Attacking Iraq will not stop the terrorism, will not stop anything, but only create new and more powerfull forces against the US.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


?

Answer my question if you wish. Attacking Iraq will not stop the terrorism, will not stop anything, but only create new and more powerfull forces against the US.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by shartley

here ya go...these are the FBIs reports...LOL

FBI Uniform Crime Reports

There are some good excel spreadsheets in the 2001 data.


JDub

[shartley]

It seems that they have more increases in crime rates than decreases. And depending on WHAT type of violent crime you look at, it either goes up, or down. This says a lot, and I am not sure you really want to use it to support any arguments that the crime rates have indeed dropped.

[Collegeboy]

See that is your problem, you seem to think that the only answer is war. Which is a narrow view of things. I do think we are apart of a global community, that is why we need to start acting like one. Blowing up everyone we disagree with will not make us apart of a global community but make us into that other guy that the whole world hates and will eventually bring us down. Don't buy into this bull crap that the actions of the US are for the best of the world, that is propaganda mantra that has always existed, and people have always believed it (Don't ask me why)

Do you honestly think by getting rid of Saddam by force we will accomplish anything in Iraq?

And again, I am not against interfering in foreign countries when the time arrives. But first make sure it will accomplish something.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
See that is your problem, you seem to think that the only answer is war. Which is a narrow view of things. I do think we are apart of a global community, that is why we need to start acting like one. Blowing up everyone we disagree with will not make us apart of a global community but make us into that other guy that the whole world hates and will eventually bring us down. Don't buy into this bull crap that the actions of the US are for the best of the world, that is propaganda mantra that has always existed, and people have always believed it (Don't ask me why)

Do you honestly think by getting rid of Saddam by force we will accomplish anything in Iraq?

And again, I am not against interfering in foreign countries when the time arrives. But first make sure it will accomplish something.

[Collegeboy]

For the last 10 years the UN has made a small sanction on Iraq which later they (US did) said if we get oil from you will give you all food.

You also forget the background to this and how the US supported Saddam, and then when he became of no use to us he became the antichrist.

A quick look throughout history has always shown state sponsored propaganda going into every war we have ever entered. Even popular ones as WWII, had some of the worst. So you know with this unpopular war coming there is going to be a lot of propaganda.

[MaChu]

OH FFS!!!!!
US SUPPORTING IRAQ WAS IN A DIFFERENT TIME STOP BRINGING IT UP!!!!!

Maybe you weren't alive back then, but there was a bigger threat then Iraq at the time, who is on the border of Iraq? Oh its the dangerous religious fundamentalist Iran who was at the time very unstable throwing threats like they owned the world. Did we know that Iraq was going to go stupid and start doing bad stuff? No. Did we think that Saddam was a good leader at the time? Yes. Why? Because he was being a good leader at the time, but I guess since it looked like we supported him he thought that we wouldnt do anything to him if he did anything bad. Stop bringing up the past, when it has no relevance to the present. Its like the libreals bring up Jefferson owning slaves. It was popular at the time and was regarded ok, but since you are bringing him to todays standards he is now a heartless horrible president when in fact he didnt abuse or hurt his slaves at all and took care of them. Plus, he was a damn fine President too you liberal idiots. Preaching equality and thinking before you act but dont abide by it. Judging the past by todays standards how retarded can you get?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
For the last 10 years the UN has made a small sanction on Iraq which later they (US did) said if we get oil from you will give you all food.

You also forget the background to this and how the US supported Saddam, and then when he became of no use to us he became the antichrist.

A quick look throughout history has always shown state sponsored propaganda going into every war we have ever entered. Even popular ones as WWII, had some of the worst. So you know with this unpopular war coming there is going to be a lot of propaganda.

[Collegeboy]

First of to MaChu, Do you know that when the US was supporting him was when he was gassing these Kurds that Bush likes to talk about. Also do you think that the Iranians was really like that, or was the US trying to justify its support of Saddam.

To Shartley

I am not chasing my tail. I read others post and take them into account, but when they don't prove me wrong I can't change my opinion.

I know the enemy likes to use propaganda too, just look at the posters popping up in N Korea right now. I am not siding with the enemy, like many people like you like to say us, who are against this war, are doing. It is wrong.

I said in my post when Saddam became of no use, which means that the US used him.

Do you realize that I said small time sanctions? Do I think sanctions will do the trick, yes, but not just sanctions alone? Boycotts on Iraqi oil will help (But bush isn't going to do that, he can't afford for the national oil price to go above $2.) Do a program like the US did in Russia during WWI. Food for the people, none for the government. Have this food administered by the UN Humanitarian forces.

But when all is said and done, the US will attack, will kill Saddam (Well if they can find the right Saddam. A puppet regime will be installed. That puppet regime will be over thrown and will be back at stage one. Oh well just another economy booster.

[shartley]

[Collegeboy]

Show me where I was proven wrong.

[nippinout]

Perhaps we should all look at this from a political science perspective.

For starters, war is diplomacy. War is necessary when other methods of diplomacy have exhausted or have failed.

Diplomacy isn't working. He kicked out UN weapons inspectors, then let them back in while he had 12 years to prepare for their return.

Let's try perhaps an analogy. Some folks say, "make love, not war."

Okay, let's say I am making love to Stephanie Seymour in some room. Now let's say that there is another room with a mean person named Saddam.

Saddam is in his room building a shoe. Not just any shoe, but a steel toed boot with a gun on the sole.

He isn't finished building his boot, but he sure is trying.

Saddam supports terrorists. Sometimes, he gives other people money to buy shoes. They use these shoes to kick people who are making love. These aren't always Super-Shoes, but shoe that kick still do a bit of damage.

Now, do I allow Saddam to build his Super-Boot and let him kick me with it while I'm making sweet love to Stephanie Seymour, or do I go in there and take away his sewing machines.

I'd rather have to take away his sewing machine. You don't want to know how angered I would be if he kicked me with his Super-Shoe while I was making love to Stephanie Seymour.

What will it take to convince some folks. I for one will not allow myself to get kicked. Stephanie ain't havin that! :)

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by shartley

Lol....i thought you would stop at that. A six month span in 2002 isnt going to tell the whole story is it? I thought you were one who wanted good data....then why are you looking at such a small statistical range?
If you look deeper into the site you will see the statistics throughout the 90's. Violent crime dropped by 25% from 92 to 2001.
But once again you only want to cite the facts that support your case. And we all know that 2002 was a bad year for the country...but its crime rate is still better than the early 90's.


JDub

[shartley]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious


Lol....i thought you would stop at that. A six month span in 2002 isnt going to tell the whole story is it? I thought you were one who wanted good data....then why are you looking at such a small statistical range?
If you look deeper into the site you will see the statistics throughout the 90's. Violent crime dropped by 25% from 92 to 2001.
But once again you only want to cite the facts that support your case. And we all know that 2002 was a bad year for the country...but its crime rate is still better than the early 90's.


JDub