Matrix discussion WITH SPOILERS

**BlkSprk** · 05-16-2003, 07:06 AM

i thought the movie tocked... so far, you are the only person i have heard ***** about it... so your weird and an outcast. just kidding.

I thought the concepts presented by the archetect as well as the ones presented by the Oracle to be very thought provoking. somthing about hearing that "We have already made the decisions, its just a matter of finding out why we made those decisions" that made me feel really uncomfortable with my life... maybe i just thought to much about it, but that is my stand point on it.

**lopxtc** · 05-16-2003, 07:28 AM

Well to counter a couple points ...

Yes this is v6.0 of the Matrix ... but the Master Architect never said how the matrix looked before hand. He just said that it took several tries, and a long time to get it right.

Also if you think about it, the 20th century may have provided to the right back-drop to futher the repeated cycle of "the One".

With the agents, again they need to ensure that the cycle of the one repeats so the agents are probably more there to ensure this happens. Albeit they may not realize that fact. They maybe there to ensure that course of the one's progress goes without another person or group realizing what is going on. Controlled chaos so to speak.

He said that when the Matrix was perfect the human minds rejected it ... that humans needed choice, and needed imperfection in order to thrive; Choice being the central subject of the movie.

Also think about this, if the humans are plugged into the Matrix and kept in stasis so to speak, how do they bread. Remember the council member got onto this humans need machines need humans kick. The Master Architect told Neo that he could choose a group of people (x number women, y number men) to continue on. what if the existing council members are ones that were chosen by the last Neo, and they understand the relationship between the machine and the humans. If you think about it, the Council acted directly opposite what the Commander wanted ... without explination. To me it seemed that they knew what was going on. After all if a specific group of people are allowd to remain alive wouldnt it make sense for them to become the next council and know what was happening?

Aaron

**JEDI** · 05-16-2003, 07:40 AM

Over all it was a good movie, but I think it was a bit weak. It didnt wow me like te first Matrix. It lacked the amount of "speedy" movement like when Neo schools Smith in the first Matrix. (The blurred speed movement) And then I thought there were a few scenes that were real cheesey. Morphius gives his speech to Zion, and then the party scene gets real cheesey. It was a good movie, but it all seemed a little bland, by previous Matrix standards.

**Quickling** · 05-16-2003, 08:20 AM

but... there were a TON of people in Zyon WITHOUT plugs.. that means a significant time has had to pass between Neo #5 and the current neo. out of 26 people there is no way you can breed 250k without plugs, hell even if 50% of them are plugless (there was more then that in the rave though) then you still need one hell of a long time between 26 founders and the current population.

which gets back to the question how does the matrix stay at the 20th C? Becuase in Matrix 1 they say they cant free a mind after certain age.. therefore implying the mind does not accept change. so therefore you just cant keep rebootin the system without major crop loss...

**Jack_Dubious** · 05-16-2003, 08:37 AM

This may have been discussed in previous Matrix threads....

One thing that bothered me about the Matrix universe is if the Machines grow the humans for energy, where does the energy required to grow humans come from? And feeding them recycled humans will help but it wont keep the process going, that would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

JDub

**Quickling** · 05-16-2003, 08:53 AM

plus the body (even laying still) requires X engery to survive. That X energy cannot be gotten from the amount of people that die each day, there is just simply not enough percentage of death in order to feed all of the living.

and actualy we would have high caloric requirements because even thinking about action (if say in the matrix you were playing paintball) will cause the physiological reaction of excitedness (your pulse will raise even if your just sitting in place) and therefore you will need even moe energy.

**nippinout** · 05-16-2003, 11:49 AM

Okay... The Architect scene got me all confused.

The Architect said this was the 6th 'One'.

If you wathced any of the Animatrix, I think it's the first episode that shows the period just before the war. Go watch it. It's placed in the future. In the first movie, Morpheus thinks it's only 100 years past the real timeline and those in the Matrix thinks it's the year 2000.

Morpheus thinks it's really around 2100. Morpheus would think this because in Matrix v5.0 everyone pretty much dies except a few survivors of Zion.

Can anyone explain the whole Architect scene and the doors? What were the outcomes for doors again?

I can talk more once I know what the hell happened in there lol.

**nippinout** · 05-16-2003, 12:13 PM

Wait a sec...

This isn't the Matrix v6.0

This is Neo v6.0 isn't it?

I know there were predecessors to the present Matrix. But was it only the previous one that failed? The Utopian one?

**Quickling** · 05-16-2003, 01:31 PM

thats what I thought.. and hence.. how does time (technology) not progress in the matrix?

*edit* I think neo v1.0 through 6.0 were all in the Current matrix desgin.. as he was the Flaw of the design.. but one flaw was better then whole lost crops.

**Tyril** · 05-16-2003, 01:54 PM

Matrix Reloaded revalation:

All the zion matrix cast are ... still in the matrix! Or, they are, at least in a second matrix. The .1% who "cannot handle" the top layer matrix (2000-esque world) are kept placid by thinking that they have already escaped, when in truth, they are still plugged in. This makes sense as to Neo's sudden telekinetic powers (as he is not a god, just one able to change the code), and explains how Zion could be wiped out time after time with no record of it ever existing before. This could mean that Neo has actually been following the machine's design!

What design?
Humans for heat? Not hardly. If organic heat they need: then why not then enslave cattle? (and it would make the simulations a hell of a lot easier: http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20030512 ). My guess is that they use humanity's minds are some sort of processing power. The whole "location of the mainframe" thing is kind of a cheesy concept. What if the machines require the neurons of active human minds as their CPU cycles? I like this concept (a la Hyperion) better then them having Asimovian Three Laws concepts against harming humans or the ideas of the machines trying to create a human-thinking computer (see the theory that Neo is a program).

If this is true, then there is no limit to how much time has elapsed since humanity entered the matrix (the Arcitect could have been lying about the six Neos). The cloud cover removes an external reference from humanity: the stars. Hell, in the [real] world (not the second level Zion matrix), maybe the earth isn't in any way destroyed. Maybe the world doesn't even take place on earth. Perhaps Neo's sudden coma is a result of a sort of "blue screen" of the second level matrix's rules. Any who says there are only two? Maybe matricies are tired as in a layered defense against the Truth, much as the OSI model is networking seperates individual components. That could give explanation to Neo's limited ability to forsee the future, and ability to resurect Trinity: he has access to the layer under the normal programming world.

I have no idea is any of these are truth, just the best I could come up with since I saw it yesterday.

-mike

**dre1919** · 05-16-2003, 02:14 PM

^^
Man, that was deep. I gotta go watch that flick again, because honestly...it's just not a good idea to watch a movie as intricate as this one is at 10pm (especially after a stop at the bar first).

**Quickling** · 05-16-2003, 06:41 PM

very good theories Tyril... I too thought that during the Neo god move thingie they were either 1- still in a matrix of sorts or 2- Neo has now become consious of electrical energy, an essence to the world that we and everything is composed of.

ok.. so my theories arnt as deep

**impostal22** · 05-16-2003, 10:10 PM

ya i agree with the whole matrix within a matrix thing, supported by neo's stopping the sentinels.

before i go any further, does anyone else think that the whole architect's revelations reminded them of the horrible plot of dark city? (not to say the matrix is horrible, i just saw a correlation..here's how)

in dark city, these aliens constantly manipulated a fake earth with real people in it to test all the possible reactions of the human psyche, to learn how to have personalities; everyone would assume entirely new lives every 24 hours. like dark city, the matrix is simply a program of deception. it is re-run every time with one simple task: debugging. neo acts as a debugger for the matrix, a program designed simply to find the flaws within the matrix; he searches for those things that give humans an advantage and then acts on them. in this case it was emotion, choice. perhaps in matrix v2.0 it was aggression and anger. who knows. the agents are put there to keep programs in line (remember the keymaker was gonna be deleted?) well i think neo is, like i said, a debugger program, and the agents are there to basically keep him on task, to press him closer to finding flaws (again, the agents don't UNDERSTAND the choices they make, but they make them because it's their purpose).

then again, this also reminds me of the truman show in a false-reality, meet-the-creator-of-your-world and get confused kind of way.

PS- anyone else get REALLY pissed when neo got the spoon? THERE IS NO SPOON, REMEMBER?! but that again brings me back to my other point, the "real world" could very well be a matrix within a matrix, and that spoon is still not really there.

PSS- i think the moral is reality is what you decide it is. you take what you perceive as the truth, and base everything in your life around it. morpheus believed that neo was the One. trinity believed that her job was to have sex with the One. hehe in all seriousness though, they all decided that the matrix world was fake and the real world was real. that choice was made by every one of our heroes, but do any of them truly *understand* their choice?

PSSS- sorry but did anyone else realize that agent smith turned into a virus within the matrix? he acts just like one, turning friendly cells into hostile ones, multiplying exponentially. he is not on anyone's side, and is only there for his own reasons. remember how he said neo isn't much different from him? viruses take advantage of system flaws, and debuggers point these flaws out. woo it all correlates in a weird twisted way.

wow i'm done rambling...

**TheBigRaguPB4L** · 05-17-2003, 02:32 PM

I think you guys need to enjoy the damned movie and stop thinking about it. It was good, why worry about more than that?

Matrix discussion WITH SPOILERS