Matrix discussion ***WITH SPOILERS***

[GT]

Originally posted by digitard

Agree/Disagree?

Sincerely,
Dave

Disagree,
BTW, I think agent smith is the one.

jb

[Hasty8]

My Matrix Reloaded views.

I haven't read everything so I will only comment on those few things I have read.

First off, the "Agent Smith" program is now a rogue program. The Matrix (or the Architect) made them obselete when it failed to stop Neo. Remember when Neo was given the package and the message was that "Neo has set me free."? Then remember later in the movie how the ORacle (another program) mentions that there are programs that refuse to be deleted.

The Agent Smith program was different in this movie because it lost it's sense of purpose. It was designed as a control mechanism of the Matrix, itself not truly understanding to to do it's job fully would actually be contrary to the whole wishes of the Architect.

The fact that there were 5 previous versions of the MAtrix does not imply that there was a specific start and ending point of each version. It's not like they said "Okay, this version stinks. Let's drop the servers and reboot tomorrow." Can anyone here tell me the exact time that IP4 ended and IP6 started? No, because they overlapped each other.

As to the use of the humans. No, they were not in anyway used as computational devices. They were batterys. This was said in both the first Matrix and in Reloaded as well as in the Animatrix.

Why the latter half of the 20th century? Again, look to the first Mattrix where Morpheus was caught and being interogated by Smith. He confided that there had been other versions, ones that were almost Utopian in design but that they were rejected by the humans and "whole crops were lost". This goes to imply the inherantly destructive nature of man.

Overall I loved Reloaded because there was less fighting. I loved the metaphysical discussions had between Neo and the Oracle and Neo and the Architect and Neo and Councilman Hamann. From those three discussions I took one simple lesson. That all three realized one thing. For both species, man and machine, to exist they must both exist. Hamann shows that both machine and man are dependant on each other for if the machines were to fail then those in Zion would certainly die. The Arch and Oracle too agreed that man and machine were needed for existance but the Arch felt that man must be controlled while the Oracle felt that humans and machines could put their differences aside.

The "systemic anamoly" that the Arch kept referring to was the human capacity to hope against all odds. The Arch thought that Neo would go to restart the next Zion because the last 5 had. They did not have enough hope to believe that they could win but this one did. This Neo had enough hope to break the algorithim, save Trinity and also return life to her.

How this interprets to him having a physical connection with the robots in the real world escapes me. Perhaps even Zion is still a Matrix induced dream and those who belive themselves to be in Zion because they broke free were just given that dream in order to make them more manageable.

Guess we won't know till Revolutions comes out.

[Hasty8]

Originally posted by digitard
Its just a MATRIX within a MATRIX type thing ...

What better way to control the human mind than to make it believe it has a way to be free ... when your just giving it layers (think 13th floor movie)

Below are my "reasons" to believe this ... oh, and it doesn't matter if they have "a bond" if it was "the real world" the rules of the real world would still apply ... wether he's "the one" or not.

1) Zion has been destroyed 6 times according to the "Architect" ... yet nobody in Zion seems to recollect this, or reference this.

2) They keep referring to "his predecessors"... as in plural, but Neo was told originally that he's basically the reincarnation of "the one" who could warp the matrix and said he'd return.

3) The "Oracle" stated that she wasn't "human" therefore a program inside the matrix. She's just "doing her job" ... and the facts point to that her job is to make him believe that "he is the one" and give him the info he requests.

4) The end: No matter how you look at it, even if he is "The one" real world rules would apply if he wasn't in the matrix ... The fact he could "Sense" them and then the EMP he originated pretty much shows that the point is "HE" has grown aware of his surroundings and that he's growing outside the matrix/matrix walls and will soon be aware of each.

The next movie takes place mainly in the "real world" (60% according to Fishburn)... So we'll just have to wait and see how it all unfolds.

There are LOTS of other small things, but I think those sum up the main points.

Agree/Disagree?

Sincerely,
Dave

1 - Of course they won't recall this. They weren't there when it started. If you recall the conversation Neo had with the Architect Neo was given the ability to rebuild Zion with 12 other people of his choosing I belive. The Matrix needed Zion as a control. If you look at some archeological digs you will find evidence of civilization upon civilization built one right on top of the latter. Do the ones on top know that they are building on the remains of an old city? Probably not.

2 - Again, a Matrix induced control. And technically he is a reincarnation. A reincarnation of the 5.0 Neo who was a reincarnation of the 4.0 Neo and so on. The first one was probably not told that he was the recarnation simply because this was the first time that the systemic anamoly had shown up.

3 - This is a totally inaccurate causality chain. What did the ORacle tell Neo the very first time they met? That he wasn't the one. So how is that her doing her job? Fact is, that she doesn't have a job. She herself is a rogue program or didn't you catch that bit about them having to use the backdoors to avoid capture? When a program is deemed useless of obselete it has a choice. Face deletion or become a "Ghosti in the machine" as it were. The ORacle felt, according to how I viewed the movie, that only by some from of cooperation could humans and machines co-exist. The Architect felt this way too, however, he felt that the humans must be controled, hence The Matrix.

4 - I think I agree with you on this if I understand you post. From what I took from Reloaded I conclueded that Zion is not real, i.e.; it is just another control and those who are in Zion are still jacked into the Matrix. They are the ones who sensed that something was worng with their world and instead of risking their waking up the Matrix simply gave them another dream to live through. I think the Neo is going to be the first one to truly awaken from the forced slumber and will truly be the first "One" to break free from the system. Unless the directors go with a darker storyline where Neo is now given a dream-world of his own where he is allowed to believe that he is free from the Matrix but is still infact connected to it.

[impostal22]

a matrix within a matrix would be too damn obvious and too cliched (the thirteenth floor did something similar). i would not liek that one bit.

QUOTE: Again, look to the first Mattrix where Morpheus was caught and being interogated by Smith. He confided that there had been other versions, ones that were almost Utopian in design but that they were rejected by the humans and "whole crops were lost".

can't believe i forgot about this!!!!!!!! that's KEY to what happened in reloaded, thanks for pointing it out, Hasty8!

[einhander619]

I don't think that anyone has directly touched on this, but it seems to me that the machines made the same mistake creating agent Smith that man did when he created the machines. At first he served them, but now it seems he's gotten away from them and intends to slave the matrix to himself(creating copies). I believe that since Neo will bring about the destruction of the matrix(or current matrix), Smith is not figthing Neo out of spite or wanting to personally kill him, but now simply for his own survival. It never says whether or not Smith would be saved should the matrix crash, does it?

Another thing I would like to touch on is Neo's nifty little stunt of stopping the sentinels in the (real?) world. While many have ascribed the multi-layered matrix explanation to this, I have another perspective, one that I don't think has been hit directly yet. It is the Buddhist philosophy that the things of this world have no permanence, and that one's ultimate goal is to simply wake up from it. Perhaps Neo realized that there is little difference from being enlightened in the matrix and being enlightened in reality. It was written that when the Buddha achieved nirvana sitting under a tree, he did not move for quite some time afterwards. Hence Neo's coma, perhaps? Besides, it would piss quite a few people off to learn that the matrix, real world, and any other part of reality in this movie is just the latest version of The Sims.
If anyone here hasn't seen the animatrix, particularly the second renaissance, I urge you to see it. Not only is it spectacularly well done, it gives one great insight to the relationship between man and machine. I think that the machines received much more than self-awareness from man. They clearly developed strong emotion as well, and I would not be suprised if that plays an ever stronger role in the last movie.

What would happen should the machines as a whole, question their purpose of existence?

On the lighter side, I wish there had been some better fighting. I mean, once Neo's the One and there's a hundred Smiths running around, doesn't it just kind of stalemate? I thought the best fight scene was the one between Morpheus and the agent on top of the truck. You really didn't know the outcome, did you? On the whole though, I absolutely loved this movie. Anyone who doesn't is shallow.

[Vendetta]

Great post einhandler! I think you hit on something. I think you may be right. This is a SciFi movie. Why not have the same powers in the "real" world. Plus Keanu played Buddha in Little Buddha.