My Rant about the quality of life going down in America?

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I think what hes trying to say is Micheal Eisner is worth $500,000,000 million a year more than the people that work 10-6 scrubbing the park for $8 because they push those heavy machines around in the heat and he has to sit at the desk all day or get his dumb butt driven around in everywhere in a $50,000 car...

Dood WEalthy people have no clue what work is. They dont even drive...

Bluntly Eisner IS worth $500 million more then the guy picking up trash. How many trash collecters do you know that could have taken Disney from almost it's deathbed in 84 to the media powerhouse it's become? $500 million is thrown arounds a lot. Do you know what his base salary was until recently? $750K. It'd been $750K since the day he was hired in 84. Granted there are bonus to the tune of 8 or 9 million dollers. That $500 million is from options he exercised which puts him right around the average US ceo over his entire term.

It's all risk vs reward. If a guy picking up trash totally screws up, there's trash laying around. If a CEO totally screws up thousands of people lose their jobs.


Collegeboy - Yes. You just repeated your argument. But you failed to explain what factors are holding down the value of factory workers.

The free market determines prices for things. If the market has determined that the price of a year's labor of a factory worker is $30k (for instance) and that's not what they "should" be making, then something else is a factor.

[ShooterJM]

Yeah I'm a dirty double poster...yadda yadda.


Wait a second. The government gets to decide what I "Should" make and then add or take the rest? I work my butt off for years in school and then at work and you think I should have to give a portion of my income to some shiftless cretin who couldn't be bothered to even apply to a McDonalds?!?!?!?! Hogwash.

Like I said, if you're trying and can't make it, that's one thing. Government mandated redistribution of wealth? Please. If the government is going to calculate what I "Should" earn and give it to me, why should I work at all. Maybe I should just get a job for a few hours a week and have income added to me instead of taken away!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
Yeah I'm a dirty double poster...yadda yadda.


Wait a second. The government gets to decide what I "Should" make and then add or take the rest? I work my butt off for years in school and then at work and you think I should have to give a portion of my income to some shiftless cretin who couldn't be bothered to even apply to a McDonalds?!?!?!?! Hogwash.

Like I said, if you're trying and can't make it, that's one thing. Government mandated redistribution of wealth? Please. If the government is going to calculate what I "Should" earn and give it to me, why should I work at all. Maybe I should just get a job for a few hours a week and have income added to me instead of taken away!

What in the world are you talking about. If these people are making money, they are surely having a job and trying to make it in this world.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
What in the world are you talking about. If these people are making money, they are surely having a job and trying to make it in this world.

So the simple fact of having a job is enough to be qualified as trying your hardest to make it?

Edit: You'll also note in your post that you didn't qualify your idea of wealth redistribution in any way.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by shartley

I have to disagree with you Sam. Yes there are rags to richs stories and riches to rags stories. Yes there is discrimination, both racial and reverse. I still feel that we have the best system there is!

Possibilities are endless! My Grandfather was a day laborer with a 4th grade education. My father is an college educated EVP for a large telecom with a near 7 figure salary. Only in America. No one gave him anything. He wokrked his way through school. (He actually went to a small school in NH that has since been folded into the state's university system) We have no caste system that holds people in a certain class. We have no aristocracy that holds all power!

Look at Bill Clinton. I can't stand the man, but I can respect what he did and where he came from to become the most powerful man in the world at one point in history! Where else but in America could this occur!

Now I did grow up rather well off and had a better start in life then many, but that was as a direct result of my fathers hard work!! But I work for my own money and family now. I pay the mortgage on both homes. I support my paintball "habit". I pay my childrens' tuition to private schools because I want them to have the best. I earn this on my own!! I am no trust fund baby!

Hey CB:
The difference between my father and that factory worker is that after his shift the factory worker goes home and forgets about work. My father, hell me for that matter, takes work everywhere all the time. We don't work 40 hours a week. We work far more!!!

As for the kid issue. That is everyone's personal choice. I do believe strongly in the welfare cap on additional children though. Shock of ages, the ultra liberal supreme court of nj did as well, upholding them. I believe that society has no right to tell a person wether or not to procreate. I also believe that society should not bear the responsibility to pay for every one's choices as well.

Have kids, but they are your kids. You are not entitled to more $ because you can make a big family!!!!

BTW CB, check those figures. Factory workers in Detroit make a hell of a lot more then $30k a year!

[Restola]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
So the simple fact of having a job is enough to be qualified as trying your hardest to make it?

Thats what he thinks. Rich people are only out to abuse and steal money from everyone. They want only to destroy people's lives and keep the working class down to do their evil bidding.

I'm working my butt off and going deep into debt so I can fly planes and make very good money. CB thinks that if I said "screw it, this is too much work", and worked at the grocery store all my life, or "tried to find work but couldn't", or had 6 kids and was hooked on crack by the time I was 18, then I should be entitled to whatever I need from the government because I'm working hard and who are you to judge me? It's not my fault I'm poor...

He also thinks if I do stick with it, continue to work hard, and land a job flying planes, that I should be penelized for it. That my income should be taken away from me and my family to pay the guy who stayed at the grocery store and has children all day long. He thinks that as soon as I start making money I'll hoard it away. I'll never spend it (because that would create jobs), and I'll never try to help anyone else with it.

Who decides this "magic" income number where you are suddenly too rich and are an evil member of society? Why Collegeboy of course.

Doesn't matter how hard you worked. Someone else is jealous and wants your money. Politicians are willing to give it to them.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI

Dood WEalthy people have no clue what work is. They dont even drive...

You have no clue!

Hey a few of us here have given you some career advice. Did you follow through on it? If you do not strive to improve your lot in life, it is not our fault if you are unhappy! Don't whine about it, do something about it!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Hey CB:
The difference between my father and that factory worker is that after his shift the factory worker goes home and forgets about work. My father, hell me for that matter, takes work everywhere all the time. We don't work 40 hours a week. We work far more!!!

As for the kid issue. That is everyone's personal choice. I do believe strongly in the welfare cap on additional children though. Shock of ages, the ultra liberal supreme court of nj did as well, upholding them. I believe that society has no right to tell a person wether or not to procreate. I also believe that society should not bear the responsibility to pay for every one's choices as well.

Have kids, but they are your kids. You are not entitled to more $ because you can make a big family!!!!

BTW CB, check those figures. Factory workers in Detroit make a hell of a lot more then $30k a year!

But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.

I use the numbers of my area for I am familiar with them. In Detroit it also cost more to live, rent is more the 250 a month for a two bed room apartment that is livable.

It is my belief that pay is just about equal for he same job all over the states (for a factory) when you consider living experiences)

Restola, I never said that. Where did you get that.

You keep using drug references, why?

I think you and others have no clue of what I am saying.

Is a guy going to stay flipping burgers at BK for 40 years. No. He is going to work his way up at the factory or what ever he does. When we are talking about the 20,000 dollar people, we are not talking about a 50 year old man, we are normally talking about people between the ages of 18 to 27 or so.

[shartley]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


I have to disagree with you Sam. Yes there are rags to richs stories and riches to rags stories. Yes there is discrimination, both racial and reverse. I still feel that we have the best system there is!

Possibilities are endless! My Grandfather was a day laborer with a 4th grade education. My father is an college educated EVP for a large telecom with a near 7 figure salary. Only in America. No one gave him anything. He wokrked his way through school. (He actually went to a small school in NH that has since been folded into the state's university system) We have no caste system that holds people in a certain class. We have no aristocracy that holds all power!

Look at Bill Clinton. I can't stand the man, but I can respect what he did and where he came from to become the most powerful man in the world at one point in history! Where else but in America could this occur!

Now I did grow up rather well off and had a better start in life then many, but that was as a direct result of my fathers hard work!! But I work for my own money and family now. I pay the mortgage on both homes. I support my paintball "habit". I pay my childrens' tuition to private schools because I want them to have the best. I earn this on my own!! I am no trust fund baby!

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Restola, I never said that. Where did you get that.

I think I nailed exactly what you are really saying, since you are too affraid for whatever reason of just comming out and saying exactly what you think. You float all around the subject without stating any workable solutions. My FIRST posts nails everything I think on this subject (the rest has been responding to stuff). We need to collect pages of your posts to even begin to understand you.

So far we know:
1. You think without government redistributing wealth poor people would starve in our streets as the American people are too greedy to help.

2. You want our government to have some socialist programs.

3. You think the hardest working people are the one's who aren't even making enough to get by (so hard work doesn't corelate at all to greater income).

4. You think the only reason executives are paid more is because they underpay (exploit) their employees (not becuase they are talented, or created new jobs, or increase efficiency)

5. You think that anyone can have as many children as they want, and there should be no responsibility on their part to be prepared financially for it (so the state should pay for all of it).

6. Anyone who is making money is trying as hard as anyone else.

So based on that information, everything I said seems right down your ally. You don't think people who earn more than a certain amount of money should keep it. You think it should be taken from them and given to someone you (or in reality some politician) thinks deserves it. You think that will make America better because people are too greedy to help anyone but themselves.

Where am I wrong? Tell us in a brief and complete post how you think the system should work.

Here is my complete plan from my first post in this thread:

...I have no problem with PRIVATE CITIZENS stepping in and helping people, that's there choice. They can provide specific help. They can choose who needs help, and who is trying to get a free ride. I have no problem with people donating to causes they believe in. That includes churches and other religious organizations. But the government should stay out of it.

Now it's your turn (and everyone can play, it'll be fun).

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

I think I nailed exactly what you are really saying, since you are too affraid for whatever reason of just comming out and saying exactly what you think. You float all around the subject without stating any workable solutions. My FIRST posts nails everything I think on this subject (the rest has been responding to stuff). We need to collect pages of your posts to even begin to understand you.

I have posted my beliefs many times on this thread and in others. I am not wanting a change in the system (other then some clean up in money allocations) but backing the system we have now. Something that is clearly noted in just about all my post. But to understand it, you have to throw away what you think I am saying, and go off of what I am saying, I will say exactly what I am thinking. There should be no I think you are saying this. For I am saying exactly what you see.

So far we know:
1. You think without government redistributing wealth poor people would starve in our streets as the American people are too greedy to help.

Human beings will always be human beings, throughout recent history (older history before the industrial revolution is pointless for it is a different world)that this idea of the public feeding the poor and taking care of them will not work, more will die then need be.

2. You want our government to have some socialist programs.

Yep

3. You think the hardest working people are the one's who aren't even making enough to get by (so hard work doesn't corelate at all to greater income).

What did I say? I said that when compared to the upper pay scale the lower pay scale works harder for the money they receive.

4. You think the only reason executives are paid more is because they underpay (exploit) their employees (not becuase they are talented, or created new jobs, or increase efficiency)

I said that is how the company can afford to pay the executives their high salary. If the company paid the workers what they should, then they couldn't afford to pay the upper end the money they once made.

5. You think that anyone can have as many children as they want, and there should be no responsibility on their part to be prepared financially for it (so the state should pay for all of it).

I think that no one should be denied the right to have a child for they work in a job that pays far less then they should get paid for and can't afford it.

6. Anyone who is making money is trying as hard as anyone else.

So based on that information, everything I said seems right down your ally. You don't think people who earn more than a certain amount of money should keep it. You think it should be taken from them and given to someone you (or in reality some politician) thinks deserves it. You think that will make America better because people are too greedy to help anyone but themselves.

Where am I wrong? Tell us in a brief and complete post how you think the system should work.

Here is my complete plan from my first post in this thread:

Now it's your turn (and everyone can play, it'll be fun).

You have to stop thinking of these government programs as some program that makes people lazy, that is a hand out to those too lazy to do better for themselves. You have got to look at them as a way to keep the economy stable when their is a huge range in the rich and the poor.

For without them, the upper strata will make far less then they are making now, even when you cut the tax down. For without them, they will be forced to raise the pay of the lower pay scale so that they can afford to live and work and produce the goods of the company. The company can not raise prices for then the pay raise would be useless, so they have to cut the salaries of the upper pay scales.

Now the way the system is set up now is perfect. You have a vast difference from upper to lower, but you have the upper class paying taxes to keep their wages up, and to settle the lower class whose the upper classes wealth is derived from. The lower class is then given income supplements in the areas of food stamps, renters help, daycare assistance, etc..... All designed to lower the living cost of the lower wage people in order that they can survive on their meager salary.

It is a + for all (well except for the middle class who bares the pain of all economic programs)

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy


But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.

See, that's the kind of ignorant statement that really gets to me. Sure, the factory worker may be putting in more manual labor then I or Deadeye is, but to make a blanket statement that he puts in more work is just insane. You know, not all people that work in "white collar" jobs just drink tea and golf. I get into work every day at 7 am and don't usually leave until well after 9pm. I defy anyone to show me a typical factory worker that puts in more time then I do, or more work (there are always exceptions, I know). Just becaues I'm not lifting boxes around doesn't mean I'm not working. How many factory workers do you know run the risk of being put in prison for a simple mistake filing with the SEC? I risk more then they do, and I'm paid for it.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
You have to stop thinking of these government programs as some program that makes people lazy, that is a hand out to those too lazy to do better for themselves. You have got to look at them as a way to keep the economy stable when their is a huge range in the rich and the poor.

Wrong. It is a handout. It's nothing more then a handout. It shouldn't be, and everyone once in a while someone tries to change it, but it never quite flies. Welfare states do not keep economies stable, they do just the opposite. The problem with entitlement societies is that once the entitlements start, they never stop, which will eventually lead to an increase in taxes and will act as a deterent to economic growth

For without them, the upper strata will make far less then they are making now, even when you cut the tax down. For without them, they will be forced to raise the pay of the lower pay scale so that they can afford to live and work and produce the goods of the company. The company can not raise prices for then the pay raise would be useless, so they have to cut the salaries of the upper pay scales.

You're not looking at the whole cycle of the economy. First, entitlement programs are a huge drag on the economy, and their disappearence would make a huge difference to everyone, not just businesses. Once the middle class have their taxes cut 10% (give or take) that would create an enormeous boon to the economy and stimulate growth. A stimulated growth is what's needed to employ more and more workers and at a better wage. Their will always be a lower class, but there is upward mobility in this country for people that work at it. A low skill worker that really puts the effort in is worth more then a low skill worker that doesn't, and that is reflected by raises, promotion, and the ability to switch jobs.

Now the way the system is set up now is perfect. You have a vast difference from upper to lower, but you have the upper class paying taxes to keep their wages up, and to settle the lower class whose the upper classes wealth is derived from. The lower class is then given income supplements in the areas of food stamps, renters help, daycare assistance, etc..... All designed to lower the living cost of the lower wage people in order that they can survive on their meager salary.

I'm sorry, I was uncontrolably vommiting when I read that the system is perfect. I didn't even get to the next line. Suffice to say that it isn't perfect, and whatever justification you gave for it being so is wrong. Once I calm down maybe I'll elaborate

It is a + for all (well except for the middle class who bares the pain of all economic programs)

Um, right. The system is great, unless your in the class that constitutes the bulk of Americans. So long as you're in the top 1% or the bottom 1% it's the best ever. Just don't be in the majority.

Uh huh, brilliant.

[Star_Base_CGI]

I dont care how many paragraphs of BS you post. Your not going to get any of us to understand that Rich people deserve money and the rest of us deserve to live like pigs.

We pay taxs. Money spent on poor people is better spent than $500,000,000,000 spent bombing thrid world countries...

Jesus said do you love me and peter said yes.

Than Jesus said. If you love me. Feed my sheep.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I dont care how many paragraphs of BS you post. Your not going to get any of us to understand that Rich people deserve money and the rest of us deserve to live like pigs.

We pay taxs. Money spent on poor people is better spent than $500,000,000,000 spent bombing thrid world countries...

Jesus said do you love me and peter said yes.

Than Jesus said. If you love me. Feed my sheep.

Not to be a *Explitive Deleted* but just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's BS. No one "Deserves" anything.

Note that Jesus also said "The poor will ALWAYS be with you". Wake up, there will always be someone who is poor by comparison.