Declassified C130 vid

[Zygote]

Please don't continue. You seem to be drawing conclusions from what people are saying without regards to what they actually say.

My point is that I'm sick to death of liberals who seem to think this country is evil and would like to see it radically turned into some socialist/communist state.

I think it's obvious that socialism won't work in the real world. We're all too selfish, myself included. Looks good on paper but just not practical. But certain aspects are beneficial and should be adapted to fit our needs. If the government has to change to meet the needs of the people so be it.

My point is I'm tired of losers in College who think they know everything because they read it in a book.

Calling people losers isn't nice...and I'm not in college. I don't think I know everything but I think I'm pretty well informed. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're ignorant.

My point is I look very closely at someone who makes statements, that somehow this country has perpetrated the same kinds of terroristic acts on the rest of the world that were done to us on 9-11.

We haven't perpetrated any terrorist acts in the classic sense. We lash out with sneakier, less flashy weapons. They aren't meant to bring attention to a cause but they're no less effective.

My point is I'm tired of losers who think that this country has never made this world a better place. And also think that this country is NOT the greatest, most open, most free country that has EVER existed. And that wanting to have the resst of the world be able to share the GOD given right to freedom is evil.

I agree with this.

[bofh]

So, Facts Of Life, are you denying that the US goverment has ever done mean nasty ugly things to other countries?

I don't disagre that the US is the most open and free country since the Republic.

But I also don't deny that we're done our share of nasty dirty things to other soveriegn nations unprevoked.

We can't go around playing the victim, We're the USA after all, we are the big boy on the block. We own the toys, and we own the field. Yeah, we've done some questionable things in the past, and I'm sure we'll do questionable things in the future. People are sure to be unhappy with whatever we do, or don't do. We are, like it or not, the playground bully.

As if we've down the same kind of terroristic actions like 9/11, I'd say we have. We've overthrown COUNTRIES. Killed at least as many civvies. Incicted Coups.

Of course, I'm sure you deny that these happened, or somehow justify it, and say we were provoked. Or perhaps, since they occured before I was born, that they aren't important now. Maybe you'll follow up with an ad-hoc personal attack. Who knows.

{edit} summation : All poo stinks.

[Wes Janson]

"Is every defence an attack upon the courts!?!"

Go watch The Crucible, and then read up on the time period. You may be sick of "stupid liberals", but I'm far more sick of people who turn a blind eye to any and all acts their government commits-all in the name of "patriotism". A true patriot does not defend his country's government, but his country's ideals. What makes you think that Washington is immune to the age-old sins of human nature-pride, arrogance, ignorance, naivete, corruption? Red white and blue does not give someone moral authority, only civil authority.
You're putting words in the mouth of someone banned for defending themself vehemently. I'll refrain from commenting on the moral tinge that gives your own words, and instead reply to your words themselves.

but simply remember that the people who serve this country PROVIDE you that luxury

Incorrect, and a dangerous misinterpretation of the reality. The PEOPLE of this nation elect leaders through voting to carry out and see to it that the spirit and letter of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and other laws of the United States are upheld. It is the President's job to fufill the intent of the Founding Father's, not to go off willy-nilly. As an analogy, think of a trust fund set up by some wealthy philanthropist. In his (or her) will, they decree that an organization will be founded and staffed to distribute their money according to the intent of the will, and continue doing so as far into the future as possible. This means, among other things, that even if the person in charge of the money does not agree with the philantrophist's decisions on what causes to support, he is bound by law to carry them out.

My point is that I'm sick to death of liberals who seem to think this country is evil and would like to see it radically turned into some socialist/communist state.

Show me someone trying to do that (without using Rush Limbaugh as a source).

My point is I'm tired of losers in College who think they know everything because they read it in a book.

No man, women, or child has ever learned more by not choosing to read a book than by reading it.

My point is I look very closely at someone who makes statements, that somehow this country has perpetrated the same kinds of terroristic acts on the rest of the world that were done to us on 9-11.

Your "point" only shows your ignorance. If you deny that America has committed atrocities against Americans and people of other nations in the past, then you are an uneducated fool. Perhaps you should have paid attention in your history class, instead of brushing it off. I could start an entire forum on AO discussing the various acts of American leaders that have resulted in mass suffering. Suffice it to say, it has happened time and time again in the past, and the only way to prevent it in the present and the future is through vigilance.

My point is I'm tired of losers who think that this country has never made this world a better place. And also think that this country is NOT the greatest, most open, most free country that has EVER existed. And that wanting to have the resst of the world be able to share the GOD given right to freedom is evil.

Name one place where anyone here made *ANY* claim to the contrary.

Actually, "puffs" were the ac130's only fitted with one 105 mm. They have since evolved...and are now devastating. The Afghans nicknamed them the fist of allah, or something. Sucks to have your day ruined like that...but, its good to be on the giving end

I could be mistaken, but I think "Puff" was a term used on multiple aircraft in Vietnam. I'm not certain about whether the AC-130 was used or not in Vietnam, but the concept behind the -130 was originally used in a smaller aircraft. And I *believe* there was a variant of one of the helicopters used as a heavy gunship in a similar role. It's been a while since I read that book by the FAC who was there in '70 or so. It was a really neat book, definitely worth reading.

I'm talking about the blind ignorace gleaned from no doubt revised history books.

Have you ever read a history book and checked for yourself?

And the fact that he seems to think we somehow DESERVED what happend on 9-11 is outright disgusting, and deserves nothing less than my full contempt.

I can only conclude that you either misinterpreted his statement, in which case you're rather stupid, or else you're subconsciously twisting his words to suit your own perceptions, in which case you are someone who desperately needs an education. In either case, you've insulted impostal and owe him an apology.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


I'm talking about the blind ignorace gleaned from no doubt revised history books.

And I'm also alluding to the unbridled hatred of this country by these people.

And the fact that he seems to think we somehow DESERVED what happend on 9-11 is outright disgusting, and deserves nothing less than my full contempt.

I don't think it is possible to get "blind ignorance" from books. Just on the face of it. Most history books are "revised", and that's a good thing. Very often more information becomes available as time passes, and the authors' objectivity increases, too. All history is written to some agenda, and the stuff that appears first tends to be a justification of the victors actions.

I also don't think ANYONE here hates the USA. I think rather that it would be fair to say that they love it despite their awareness of past misdeeds. And impostal never said the US deserved the 9-11 attacks, just that the USA has inflicted worse on other countries. Which is true. So has Canada, but I don't think my country deserves to be attacked, either.

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
-George Orwell

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Wes Janson

Show me someone trying to do that (without using Rush Limbaugh as a source).

Hmmm let's see, Democratic-Underground, A.N.S.W.E.R., Not In My Name, Every single Communist Group ever created, a dozens upon dozens of fringe left wing groups too numerous to mention.

No man, women, or child has ever learned more by not choosing to read a book than by reading it.

I don't need to read the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf for example to know for a fact that both of them are wastes of perfectly good trees. And that any jackass that holds such materials as bastions of literacy can kiss my backside.

Your "point" only shows your ignorance. If you deny that America has committed atrocities against Americans and people of other nations in the past, then you are an uneducated fool. Perhaps you should have paid attention in your history class, instead of brushing it off. I could start an entire forum on AO discussing the various acts of American leaders that have resulted in mass suffering. Suffice it to say, it has happened time and time again in the past, and the only way to prevent it in the present and the future is through vigilance.

You presume too much. Since when have I EVER said that I blindly follow this government. Or understand that there have been times when the leadership has made massive blunders somewhere in the world.

What I HAVE said, if you'd care to read any of my other posts in topics like this, is I am sick of liberals who ceaselessly attack my COUNTRY for no better reason than they hate George W. Bush.

Have you ever read a history book and checked for yourself?

Just as an FYI, I survived the attempts at doctrination that the colleges call an education not once but 3 times, the most recent being my MBA. So please, save your pathetic attempts at attacking my education for some other witless fool.

I can only conclude that you either misinterpreted his statement, in which case you're rather stupid, or else you're subconsciously twisting his words to suit your own perceptions, in which case you are someone who desperately needs an education. In either case, you've insulted impostal and owe him an apology.

I owe him neither an apology nor a retraction of anything I've said thus far. My reading comp skills are far above average and had no problem reading his intent. The fact that you agree with him, only goes to show that you are hardly an independent source for interpretation of what he has said.

[grw4w34]

I think that impostal was just tryin to see it from the point of an Afgani or Iraqi person. Innocent people die in war, but its not like we go and kill them on purpose like what happened on 9/11, we make an effort to wipe out the hostile forces without harming innocent people. Sometime we cant tell if people are hostile or not, but it was pretty easy to tell that people in the trade center werent hostile to whoever was responsible. So if 10 innocent Iraqi's or Afgani's have to die for every 1000 hostiles killed its worth it. What if one of those 1000 had planned the next attack? yeah it is sad that innocent people die as part of what our country does, but its a part of war.

[FactsOfLife]

No other country on this Earth goes as far out of it's way in combat to minimize civilian casualties.

NO ONE.

And anyone who says otherwise has an agenda.

[GrassNinja]

wow., this is really gettin good.

how come nobody mentioned all the silly helpful crap we do. Like, no body mentioned the BUTT-LOADS of pallets, loaded on C-130 after C-130, full of clothes, toys, back-packs, and food, that we send to the Phillipines every freakin day. Add that up with your cruel and unusual acts. Im not justifying something bad with a good, Im just saying, some folks are really focusing on only the negative as if thats all that ever happens.

when we need to, sure, we will aid in the ousting of a dictator, but lets look at this sensible. We arnt pulling Barney the Dinosaur away from a classroom full of loving kids, we're yankin Saddam and the boys off the poor peeps hes been beating on and torturing for year anfter year.

I have to get back to work, makin the world safe takes up alot of time.

GrassNinja

[Zygote]

We arnt pulling Barney the Dinosaur away from a classroom full of loving kids, we're yankin Saddam and the boys off the poor peeps hes been beating on and torturing for year anfter year.

That's a good thing, and thank you for doing it. The questionable things the U.S. does usually has nothing to do with our military. We tend to destroy economies and support governments with poor human rights records, and that calls for weasels in business suits- not soldiers.

On a side note, if you decide to drop Barney the Dinosaur on Iraq I would have no objection.

[Wes Janson]

Hmmm let's see, Democratic-Underground, A.N.S.W.E.R., Not In My Name, Every single Communist Group ever created, a dozens upon dozens of fringe left wing groups too numerous to mention

Prove the (A) existence of any of the above, and (B) intent to destroy the United States. And then link them with all adults in the United States who consider themselves liberal in their thoughts. Failure to meet the requirements above is grounds for dismissal of your argument.

I don't need to read the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf for example to know for a fact that both of them are wastes of perfectly good trees. And that any jackass that holds such materials as bastions of literacy can kiss my backside.

How can it hurt you? Every single solitary military leader in history will tell you it is wise to know one's enemy..and one's friend. Dismissing them as belonging to "them" and thus worthless is an unspeakably ignorant thing to do. I'm really not sure why I'm even bothering with you, but I'll continue.

What I HAVE said, if you'd care to read any of my other posts in topics like this, is I am sick of liberals who ceaselessly attack my COUNTRY for no better reason than they hate George W. Bush.

Explain how it is you deduced that they hate George Bush. Give evidence, not conjecture, or bull****.

Just as an FYI, I survived the attempts at doctrination that the colleges call an education not once but 3 times, the most recent being my MBA. So please, save your pathetic attempts at attacking my education for some other witless fool.

Anyone who starts an education with the intent of trying to learn as little as possible, might as well go give their tuition money to a homeless person on the street. And I've never encountered a public college setting, nor even heard of one, that tried to "doctrinate" its students.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Wes Janson

Prove the (A) existence of any of the above, and (B) intent to destroy the United States. And then link them with all adults in the United States who consider themselves liberal in their thoughts. Failure to meet the requirements above is grounds for dismissal of your argument.

Nice try kid, but all the examples I've cited are easily documented by anyone with the half teaspoon of brains in their heads.

How can it hurt you? Every single solitary military leader in history will tell you it is wise to know one's enemy..and one's friend. Dismissing them as belonging to "them" and thus worthless is an unspeakably ignorant thing to do. I'm really not sure why I'm even bothering with you, but I'll continue.

You have no clue as to my literary background. Zero, zilch, nada.

Explain how it is you deduced that they hate George Bush. Give evidence, not conjecture, or bull****.

Apparently you haven't been to many D.C. rallys have you? Understandable as your 8th grade field trips are probably geared more towards the local museums and whatnot. Instead of speaking from ignorance, try actually listening to the adults who've already been there, done that.

Anyone who starts an education with the intent of trying to learn as little as possible, might as well go give their tuition money to a homeless person on the street. And I've never encountered a public college setting, nor even heard of one, that tried to "doctrinate" its students.

I can certainly understand why you've never "encountered a public college." Not many 16 year olds do.

And as for your supposition of my intents during my college career, once gain your ignorance speaks volumes.

I'll tell you my intents. Gain the education I needed to start, grow and maintain my business. I did it on my own. I paid for it on my own. And earned it on my own. I carried perfect grades while working to support myself and was class Valedictorian twice, and MCL 3 times.

So take your 16 year old sanctimonious crap and get back to watching the cartoon network. You have zero business criticising my experiences.

[Koosh]

Facts, I respect your opinion and almost everything you post here I agree with...

But knock off the holier then thou BS. Are people not entitled to opinions nowadays? How are the youngans going to learn what you want them to learn if you don't TELL them? Just because one collegeboy pissed you off doesnt mean they all are that stupid...

Oh, but wait... I'm only 19 and go to college... I guess that makes me an ignorant, liberal, commie loving, America hating, terrorist who wants nothing then to see welfare babies get YOUR hard earned money...

And lets not forget... No person has ever ever EVER corrected someone who is older then them. Nope, that just doesnt happen.

-EDIT

Just a note, I'm not defending the idiots who think that we DESERVED the 9/11 attacks, but seriously man... stop leaning on the "Your wrong BECAUSE your a liberal" crutch... You always cite examples of the EXTREME left... like the extreme right isn't as scary?

I'm a Watershed Science major, not politics... so I usually try and stay out of that area and will be the first to admit I know nothing about you, your life, or anything else... but you know equally less about just about everyone here too... stop assuming everything.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh

Facts, I respect your opinion and almost everything you post here I agree with...

and here comes the but...

But knock off the holier then thou BS. Are people not entitled to opinions nowadays? How are the youngans going to learn what you want them to learn if you don't TELL them? Just because one collegeboy pissed you off doesnt mean they all are that stupid...

Show me proof of that. So far I ain't impressed with "todays youth".

Oh, but wait... I'm only 19 and go to college... I guess that makes me an ignorant, liberal, commie loving, America hating, terrorist who wants nothing then to see welfare babies get YOUR hard earned money...

Don't know that for sure, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

And lets not forget... No person has ever ever EVER corrected someone who is older then them. Nope, that just doesnt happen.

I used to be the same way. Then I grew up and realised that you RESPECT your elders for a reason.

-EDIT

Just a note, I'm not defending the idiots who think that we DESERVED the 9/11 attacks, but seriously man... stop leaning on the "Your wrong BECAUSE your a liberal" crutch... You always cite examples of the EXTREME left... like the extreme right isn't as scary?

I'll stop leaning on it when they stop proving the truth of that every time they open their mouths. I don't hold out much hope for that happening anytime soon.

I'm a Watershed Science major, not politics... so I usually try and stay out of that area and will be the first to admit I know nothing about you, your life, or anything else... but you know equally less about just about everyone here too... stop assuming everything.

So far I've assumed nothing other than what 8th graders field trips are like these days. Other than that, I've pretty much used what I know for a fact about college campii, and the inhabitants thereof.

[Wes Janson]

Nice try kid, but all the examples I've cited are easily documented by anyone with the half teaspoon of brains in their heads.

Then I'm rendering your arguments null and void because you refuse to back them up with proof. No evidence=no argument.
You have offered zero proof that the left is trying to destroy this country intentionally or otherwise.

You have no clue as to my literary background. Zero, zilch, nada.

I can deduce from your comments what it might be. And frankly, anyone who advocates the destruction of books simply because the political message contained within disagrees with their own, does not seem likely to be a well-read person.

Apparently you haven't been to many D.C. rallys have you? Understandable as your 8th grade field trips are probably geared more towards the local museums and whatnot. Instead of speaking from ignorance, try actually listening to the adults who've already been there, done that.

They have a term for that. It's called an ad hominem attack. In any serious debate, such a comment would get you penalized. Simply because it serves no purpose but to weaken your own side. I don't appear to be the one speaking from ignorance here.

I can certainly understand why you've never "encountered a public college." Not many 16 year olds do.

Misquoting and attacking the other person, again, only serves to make yourself appear even more foolish.

So take your 16 year old sanctimonious crap and get back to watching the cartoon network. You have zero business criticising my experiences.

I'm criticising your method of debating, not your experiences. It would seem you have difficulty distinguishing them, because it's the same sort of mistake you made earlier with impostal. I don't see much point in continuing this any further, because as much as I'd like to truly speak my mind, flaming other people does not serve me in any way but to diminish myself. Suffice it to say that I will take any comments by you in the future anywhere on AO or elsewhere, with a hefty grain of salt.

[Koosh]

Facts... Let me show you what happens when you hold a "peace rally" at a school of 25,000 kids...

Pictures taken at Colorado State University, February 2003









The last picture is a little decieving. Most people were standing their either yelling at the "demonstrators" (who formed a human peace sign! whoopity fricken doo!) or just laughing at them. After all, it was pretty funny.

I never got a picture of the best part though... up to the Iraq war last year there were people sitting outside the student center with "Fasting for peace" signs... One day a local frat came up and had a barbeque... "Burgers for war" signs all over. It was great.

All college campuses are the same, right?

Ah whatever. You'll keep doing what your doing, and I'll keep reading it. I don't have a firm opinion of much, so know that I'm not cut out for political discussions... I'll leave the rest for people who either know what they are talking about, or want others to THINK they know... But we all know which is which.