LIVE from the RNC in NYC

[Kellen_p8nt]

I still dont see it not only did he testify but he also wrote a book about. the great irony is that he didnt see that type of crime while in vietnam. So what excatly was he testifing to? Stuff he had seen on tv?

I think this will be a moot point if word gets out of his "other" anti-war activites come to light.

your gunna have to provide a legitament link for me to believe that.

[RoadDawg]

I still dont see it not only did he testify but he also wrote a book about. the great irony is that he didnt see that type of crime while in vietnam. So what excatly was he testifing to? Stuff he had seen on tv?

I think this will be a moot point if word gets out of his "other" anti-war activites come to light.

I need to see this "other" activities thing you talk about. Preferably from a credible and not highly Republican news sources.

[GT]

Disclaimer: First of all lets just cut the "party" associated news sources. Each network has a bais but for some people to say that they, all of them, dont tell the truth is just crap. Both sides attempt to discredit one another, and yet, have now way to disern the truth. Each network can add there small slant to the story but I refuse to believe that news sources outright lie. This problem has started in the last 10-15 years.
If you guys wish for my contiuned invovlement in this topic, drop the conspiracy garabage
Here are a few links to the FBI '70's 'ish investigations:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16134-2004Mar22.html

This article was filled 4/11/2004
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4915223/

In contrast, other members of the group were accused of conspiracy to riot during the 1972 Republican National Convention, of passing classified information to a Japanese communist leader, and various acts of violence. A Connecticut member was arrested with an explosive device en route to a speech given by Vice President Spiro Agnew.

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/vvaw.html

This was verified by his campagin sometime last week that he was in france durring this time.

John Kerry first became familiar with the VVAW through his sister Peggy, in 1969. After deciding not to run for Congress in 1970, Kerry went to Paris, site of the Vietnam War peace negotiations, and met with Viet Cong representatives. After his return, he began speaking at VVAW events. John Kerry became one the Vietnam Veteran's Against the War's most publicly recognizable figures. Especially after his appearance before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971.

late '90's

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=40190

[Rebel46_99]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/3/18/85900.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/2/120951.shtml

Just a sample of what's out there..........

[Rebel46_99]

One more of particular interest......

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545

[PissedGodzilla]

Rebel all i can say is, when you have served two tours of duty, and you want to speak your peace out against that same war, then i think you have earned that right.


gtrsi, If these ideas were so credible, it would be DEMANDED that they would be brought to the forefront, I would want it examined myself. but the fact that these allegations haven't been pushed forward tells me that there is more to that story than what is vaguely accused at John Kerry.


Regarding the "flip-flop" of Dick Cheney and the hypocrisy of his speech, here are some sources.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/02_lakoff_gop3.shtml

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/01_lakoff_gop2.shtml

Here's a speech from Zell Miller showing his hypocrisy. this is actuaslly from his own website.

http://miller.senate.gov/speeches/030101jjdinner.htm

regarding the fundig:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/21/sprj.irq.congress.iraq.ap/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57627-2004Sep2.html

and here is the bush flip flop

we can win it...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040413-20.html

we can't "win it"...

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-0/109393107890470.xml

oh no wait... umm yes we can win it

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002021999_bush01.html

[GT]

and here is the bush flip flop

we can win it...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040413-20.html

we can't "win it"...

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-0/109393107890470.xml

oh no wait... umm yes we can win it
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...99_bush01.html

I know this is wrong and so do you. Lets not play the tic tack game with one liners taken out of context. As I stated above this was taken out of context and the DNC ran with it. Both parties do it and its very childish. Let's be completely honest, is there any doubt in your mind that Bush/Cheney wont be chasing down terrorists?

Regarding the "flip-flop" of Dick Cheney and the hypocrisy of his speech, here are some sources.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/...koff_gop3.shtml

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/...koff_gop2.shtml

These links are comentary and not records of the actual votes. I still see no proof. See if you can find the voting records.

regarding the fundig:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...ngress.iraq.ap/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7-2004Sep2.html

Nice articles,
but again they are more comentaries than anything else. One article says that Kerry voted down a portion of the 87 billion because 20 billion was in grants, and the other says Kerry didnt vote for it because there was no "plan" in place. This is why I prefer the "raw data" on canidate votes and not what news sources conclude. Typically a news source gets this raw data and then makes conclusion on it, and not investigating the why or the historical context.

I am not here to persuade you to vote for this canadate or that, but I am here to highlight some things from each camp. The problem here, and it mentions it ever so slightly in one of the articles you provided, is that senators rarely ever make great presidents. One huge problem is there voting record. They have to compromise, just as they would with world leaders as prez, and somtimes vote on bills that they do not favor so that they can pass future legislation in thier favor.

Rebel all i can say is, when you have served two tours of duty, and you want to speak your peace out against that same war, then i think you have earned that right.

Yes, but he was born with that right as an american citizen and it was confirmed durring his service. Does he have a right to protest the war? You bet. The question is: Was it appopriate for him to do all of the other stuff?

[PissedGodzilla]

I know this is wrong and so do you. Lets not play the tic tack game with one liners taken out of context. As I stated above this was taken out of context and the DNC ran with it. Both parties do it and its very childish. Let's be completely honest, is there any doubt in your mind that Bush/Cheney wont be chasing down terrorists?

just like the "flip-flop" of kerry is taken out of context. There is no doubt in my mind that Kerry can do just as good, if not a better job then bush/cheney... he FOUGHT in a war, he knows what is needed to win. Cheney and his "deferments" and his quote "I had more inportant things to do than the Vietnam war" might not. don't you think the actual experience might make someone a better leader?

These links are comentary and not records of the actual votes. I still see no proof. See if you can find the voting records.

?

I'm working on trying to find the records on the government sites... it is very hard to search stuff on them lol...but so many people are reporting the same thing, I m goint to take respected newspapers like the washington post on it's word.

Nice articles,
but again they are more comentaries than anything else. One article says that Kerry voted down a portion of the 87 billion because 20 billion was in grants, and the other says Kerry didnt vote for it because there was no "plan" in place. This is why I prefer the "raw data" on canidate votes and not what news sources conclude. Typically a news source gets this raw data and then makes conclusion on it, and not investigating the why or the historical context.

I am not here to persuade you to vote for this canadate or that, but I am here to highlight some things from each camp. The problem here, and it mentions it ever so slightly in one of the articles you provided, is that senators rarely ever make great presidents. One huge problem is there voting record. They have to compromise, just as they would with world leaders as prez, and somtimes vote on bills that they do not favor so that they can pass future legislation in thier favor.
?

I understand you point, but just like you said above, which i wholeheartedly agree with, all news sources lately have their own spin on everything... no matter where you go you will find this... I will email the specific article writers and see if I can get their source info for you.

Yes, but he was born with that right as an american citizen and it was confirmed durring his service. Does he have a right to protest the war? You bet. The question is: Was it appopriate for him to do all of the other stuff?

I think, unless I was there and experienced the same things, I can't argue against what he says... if he feels that he needed to protest the war, he has the right to, however he wants to as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other americans.




See, Cphil? both side can't act civilized!!! lol

[GT]

don't you think the actual experience might make someone a better leader?

Sure,
But you have to keep two things in mind when considering wartime experience, what the actual experience is and how long have they been doing said activities. I have a problem with Kerry running on his vietnam experience, it has very little to do with how a war is run.

When you are a grunt on the ground you get a great idea of what happens in a war but you dont manage a war. Sitting on a boat in indochina gives little experince to planning and excuting a war. Now, if Kerry was an Ret. General I could honestly say that he would have the adaqute experince to lead a wartime nation. It's like saying the checkout clerk at Wal-mart has the skills to run the whole corperation.

I also think jumping on bush/cheney for not going is pretty moronic, Everyone knew, for the most part, that vietnam was a death sentence. Infact Kerry was denied such a deferment atleast once. It has also been said, but not released, that Kerry didnt volunteer form service, He joined the reserves and was forced to go. Why Kerry or the DNC decided to run on wartime service is beyond me. Or maybe they had to becuase he was a senator and like I said before, its really hard to get those guys into the presidency, heck the DNC tore Bob Dole to pieces on his senate record.

Another small note on wartime managment
You will notice old footage of WWI and WWII generals. Alot of these guys were not hardened warriors rather seasoned buisnessmen and CEO's from huge companies like GE. As said as it sounds you manage human lives just like any other asset in a war and just like everything else there is a compromise. The realitly is you have to remove yourself from the emotional side of wartime activities, death and distruction, and place priorties and risks into perspective. Again this is not experience soldiers recieve nor senators.

I think, unless I was there and experienced the same things, I can't argue against what he says... if he feels that he needed to protest the war, he has the right to, however he wants to as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of other americans.

This is more a question of ehtics and not legality. Americans can forgive the wartime testominy but it becomes increasingly diffcult to turn the other cheak at other activities.

I understand you point, but just like you said above, which i wholeheartedly agree with, all news sources lately have their own spin on everything... no matter where you go you will find this... I will email the specific article writers and see if I can get their source info for you.

Lets be honest, the news buisness is a buisness just like everything else. there in it for the mighty dollar. Right now, my guess, is that it is not popular to present stories that are anti-Kerry. I draw this conclusion from the amount of spending for anti-bush-527's. Presumably the folks that spend the top dollars are also those folks that spent massive amounts in non-elections years on advertising on some, not all, networks.

Its a big game to get our dollars, and we are just the pons

[Rebel46_99]

[QUOTE=PissedGodzilla]Rebel all i can say is, when you have served two tours of duty, and you want to speak your peace out against that same war, then i think you have earned that right.

QUOTE]

PG....

WHEN or IF you have WORN the uniform of the United States Armed Forces as I have, then you can question my ability to speak on these things. Until then you are so much hot air.

No, I didn't serve in Viet Nam. We were in the process of drawing down our troop strength at that time. But NO ONE, especially not YOU or anyone else, who wasn't even BORN yet can question my loyalty or service during that time. And by that same standard, it gives me every right to question someone who bailed out of his "Tour of Duty" at his earliest convenience because of his political ties.

Are you also aware that your beloved Sen. Kerry never attended one single drill out of 48 during his required 2 years of ACTIVE Reserve? I didn't think so.... But, I did attend all 24 of mine. Being in the USAF meant only one weekend a month.

DW

And in case you aren't aware, Reserve duty is pulled AFTER your 2, 4 or 6 year Active Duty status. At least that was the case back in '70's before you were even thought about.

[Cougar]

Look, I'm glad you had a good time. I'm glad your safe as well, I heard some of those protests were getting otu of hand... those anarchists DO NOT represent the normal Democrat.




I want an honest and non-anger or satire filled answer for this. What did Pres. Bush just tell us tonight? not a damn new thing. All of the "new ideas" he spoke of were championed by Kerry long ago.

Um ok then bud...What new things has Kerry talked about? Um...none...All he can talk about is his service in Nam. How is that going to help our economy and the war over in Iraq?

[Rooster]

"Rebel all i can say is, when you have served two tours of duty, and you want to speak your peace out against that same war, then i think you have earned that right."


LOL! From the mouths of morons. How many peacenik anti-war protestors have served two tours? Good try, but the same old retarded tripe, from the same old retarded scum.

[PissedGodzilla]

"Rebel all i can say is, when you have served two tours of duty, and you want to speak your peace out against that same war, then i think you have earned that right."


LOL! From the mouths of morons. How many peacenik anti-war protestors have served two tours? Good try, but the same old retarded tripe, from the same old retarded scum.

This coming from the mouth of a useless pighead blind follower... you are the retarded one... am I taling about protesters that did not serve first??? NO... grow up and get off these boards you sick man... The majority of AO is sick of you coming in here, dropping bombs by insulting people, and not providing any proofs... it's sad you lead such an anger filled existence...


get some psychiatric help... you need it...

[PissedGodzilla]

When did I question you or your ability to speak out?? I have always thanked every person for their service. My father was USAF Intel. I respect you more than you apparently think.
You have every right to say anything you want, you served, I have never said anything different.

I would like some proof of this accusation about Kerry not attending drills... Or is this more of you "Beloved" Bush's rhetoric?

Bailed?? The man what injured in the fight... it is hypocritical of you to demand respect and then not respect the same.

PG....

WHEN or IF you have WORN the uniform of the United States Armed Forces as I have, then you can question my ability to speak on these things. Until then you are so much hot air.

No, I didn't serve in Viet Nam. We were in the process of drawing down our troop strength at that time. But NO ONE, especially not YOU or anyone else, who wasn't even BORN yet can question my loyalty or service during that time. And by that same standard, it gives me every right to question someone who bailed out of his "Tour of Duty" at his earliest convenience because of his political ties.

Are you also aware that your beloved Sen. Kerry never attended one single drill out of 48 during his required 2 years of ACTIVE Reserve? I didn't think so.... But, I did attend all 24 of mine. Being in the USAF meant only one weekend a month.

DW

And in case you aren't aware, Reserve duty is pulled AFTER your 2, 4 or 6 year Active Duty status. At least that was the case back in '70's before you were even thought about.

[PissedGodzilla]

Um ok then bud...What new things has Kerry talked about? Um...none...All he can talk about is his service in Nam. How is that going to help our economy and the war over in Iraq?

I think i amswered your question in the quote. The new ideas that kerry had were the same that Bush said were his "new" ideas at the RNC.

Specifically privatization of social security, healthcare reform...

below is my quote to show you what I mean... the last line I wrote. those were new ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PissedGodzilla
Look, I'm glad you had a good time. I'm glad your safe as well, I heard some of those protests were getting otu of hand... those anarchists DO NOT represent the normal Democrat.




I want an honest and non-anger or satire filled answer for this. What did Pres. Bush just tell us tonight? not a damn new thing. All of the "new ideas" he spoke of were championed by Kerry long ago.