LIVE from the RNC in NYC

[GT]

I wonder if the percentages are different now with Pres. Bush's tax cuts taken into account? I am guessing those years aren't published yet, I know that takes time. I just wanted to point that out.

I believe that the "middle class" recieved as much as a 4-5% tax cut and the super rich folks 1-2%. That is just something I heard and I am sure that info is availible somewhere on the net. Problem is those tax cuts are only temporary.

gt

[FactsOfLife]

I have to give credit where credit is due, that was a thoughtful and informative post Facts, good one, seriously.

my only question is on the part I quoted you on. Yes your fidures are correct, but the figures are for the years before the current President (albiet 2001 is on there). I wonder if the percentages are different now with Pres. Bush's tax cuts taken into account? I am guessing those years aren't published yet, I know that takes time. I just wanted to point that out.

The numbers haven't changed significantly since Ronaldus Magnus cut the top marginal tax rates. Even with the massive Clinton tax increases the percentages of who pays what has always remained grossly out proportion.

Apparently it's ok to punish achievement in this country by "making the rich pay their fair share".

How about those that pay zero taxes? Any guess on what part of sosiety that might be?

Here's a hint, it ain't the middle class and the rich...

[1stdeadeye]

How about those that pay zero taxes? Any guess on what part of sosiety that might be?

Here's a hint, it ain't the middle class and the rich...

Bwahahahahaha!

[Lohman446]

spin it however you like miscue. The Swift boat vets have been thuroughly debunked. NOne of them served on his boat. Hell O'Neill didnt get there till Kerry left. And one of them, the medical doctor, is either lying or OH NO! flipflopping. Because he gave Kerry golden reviews in the military.

Yes it is your constitutional right. BUt that ammendment only protects so far. This is what we call slander or libel. Hence its not protected. Read my earlier post. It goes both ways. If a 527 lied about BUsh then they should be reported.


And if vietnam is what people are voting on. Then well were scrwed either way. IM voting on key issues and facts.

Kerry's service I don't question - there are going to discrepancies in the account of exact details while in hostile conditions and frankly, well some metals are going to be awarded that might not have been earned... so Kerry may or may not have earned those metals, know what, I really don't care in the end. He was there, he served and I will respect that service.

I do care about Kerry coming back and telling the world our soldiers committed atrocities. NAME NAMES lets try people. Any American soldier who did the acts that Kerry said they did, should be tried and punished accordingly. If your not going to name names, well there are several reasons one might not. You were part of the acts.... or your making them up, being a liberal hippy to try to get into the pants of some liberal rich chick. Oh... men fake interest in things for the sake of a relationship... what a surprise

Kerry offends me... Abu Grey (sp) - there were crimes committed, those who reported them named names, and the situation is being handled. Kerry, name names from Vietnam, lets handle our problems, lets show the world our soldiers are accountable for there actions. Either be specific... or shut up. I think you were heavily embelishing reality then, and I think you do to this day. My concern, is that may be what your really think of our military.

[lather]

Bwahahahahaha!

My friend's <who got back recently from Afghanistan btw> wife was laid off from her job as a CSR at Verizon while he was on his tour. Her job is now in India somewhere. Why dont I give you his number so you can let him know how amusing you find it that she doesnt have to pay taxes now she is unemployed?

I sincerely wish that those of you that are for Bush dont experiece any type of bad luck or economic hardship. Personally I had to go on welfare when I was laid off a few years ago and I needed it for the time it took me to get another job. Its ugly to see that some people get amusment over other's misfortune.

Numbers and facts:

CIA agents identities compromised for politcal reasons in the Bush administration

Cheney is still on Haliburton's payroll as an advisor.

A Haliburton Subsidary conducts business with Iran.

Bush is the first president since Hoover that has created ZERO NET new jobs during his term.

The median income has declined by $1500.00 per family in the US since Bush took office. Median income rose by $7500.00 during the Clinton adminstration. I believe the median income for a family in the US is around $50,000 right now.

4.3 million more people have lost their health insurance since Bush took office.

5.3 million more people are now living at or below the poverty level since Bush took office.

Facts and numbers can be used to support any argument. I believe we will be better off without Bush and others think we are better off with Bush. I wont be convinced to be Pro Bush and there is some that wont ever be Pro Kerry. Agree to disagree I guess.

[GT]

Why dont I give you his number so you can let him know how amusing you find it that she doesnt have to pay taxes now she is unemployed?
Numbers and facts:

CIA agents identities compromised for politcal reasons in the Bush administration

Cheney is still on Haliburton's payroll as an advisor.

A Haliburton Subsidary conducts business with Iran.

Bush is the first president since Hoover that has created ZERO NET new jobs during his term.

The median income has declined by $1500.00 per family in the US since Bush took office. Median income rose by $7500.00 during the Clinton adminstration. I believe the median income for a family in the US is around $50,000 right now.

4.3 million more people have lost their health insurance since Bush took office.

5.3 million more people are now living at or below the poverty level since Bush took office.

Facts and numbers can be used to support any argument. I believe we will be better off without Bush and others think we are better off with Bush. I wont be convinced to be Pro Bush and there is some that wont ever be Pro Kerry. Agree to disagree I guess.

Great post! Only problem is you have no idea why those things happen and just pin those on Bush because he happens to be in office. Do you know why things were different under Clinton as opposed to Bush? How about Kerry?

All I see is blame being placed everywhere. Is the governement resonsable for you? Last note from me on taxes: There has never EVER been a society that has flourished economically from an increase in taxes Undoubtly an increase in socail programs is a dramatic increase in spending. Next question is: What invovlment should the government have in your employment should a private comapany no longer need your services?

If we, all of us, have not figured it out yet we will have to be better trained, more educated, and more creative to keep our jobs here statside.

[lather]

Gtrsi--well so far you called me ignorant and moronic. I have no problem if thats what you think. Please remember as you mature and get some experience in the real world you may find its not always in your best interest to call others a moron.

[lather]

Great post! Only problem is you have no idea why those things happen and just pin those on Bush because he happens to be in office. Do you know why things were different under Clinton as opposed to Bush? How about Kerry?

All I see is blame being placed everywhere. Is the governement resonsable for you? Last note from me on taxes: There has never EVER been a society that has flourished economically from an increase in taxes Undoubtly an increase in socail programs is a dramatic increase in spending. Next question is: What invovlment should the government have in your employment should a private comapany no longer need your services?

If we, all of us, have not figured it out yet we will have to be better trained, more educated, and more creative to keep our jobs here statside.

Yes I agree you cant pin the economy's success/failure on any one administration. However, I do think that some administrations are better at stimulating the economy than others.

[FactsOfLife]

Numbers and facts:

CIA agents identities compromised for politcal reasons in the Bush administration


Cheney is still on Haliburton's payroll as an advisor.

A Haliburton Subsidary conducts business with Iran.

Bush is the first president since Hoover that has created ZERO NET new jobs during his term.

The median income has declined by $1500.00 per family in the US since Bush took office. Median income rose by $7500.00 during the Clinton adminstration. I believe the median income for a family in the US is around $50,000 right now.

4.3 million more people have lost their health insurance since Bush took office.

5.3 million more people are now living at or below the poverty level since Bush took office.

Facts and numbers can be used to support any argument. I believe we will be better off without Bush and others think we are better off with Bush. I wont be convinced to be Pro Bush and there is some that wont ever be Pro Kerry. Agree to disagree I guess.

Facts? Let's take your "facts" one at a time shall we?

CIA agents Identified by the Bush Admin for political gain. Explain to me why it was that the agent in question was named on her husband's (Joe Wilson) website as CIA operative long before it was supposedly leaked by the Bush admin. Care to explain that FACT?

Cheney divested himself of his holdings in Haliburton. Keep trying to stick that particular bit of mud on the wall, maybe someday it'll stick.

A Haliburton subsidiary does business with Iran. And your point is? How about this FACT: France Germany and Russia all had ILLEGAL dealings with Iraq in VIOLATION of UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS. Does this not bother you in the least? Does it not bother you that these three countries fought tooth and nail to stop the US from removing Hussein from power? Apparently for their own selfish reasons? And to the mortal detriment of US Servicemen and women?

Bush has created zero net jobs during his term. I have news for you. The Government despite your wishes is NOT the end all be all job creator you wish it it to be. Here's a FACT for you: 5.4% unemployment rate. Guess what? That's LOWER than when Clinton ran for re-election.

Median income has dropped 1500$US during this administration. Show me a link. I ain't buying this nonsense. The tax revenues along do not in any way shape or form substantiate your claim as anything but rhetoric and spin.

4.3 million have lost thir health care during the Bush admin. This one needs breaking down.
Anyone that changed jobs and was out of work for ONE DAY was counted as having lost their health care in this survey that is so often quoted. This included contract employees, temp workers and seasonal. How many million is that? I don't have health care. Know why? I pay for my services myself. Doctors fees, checkups, dentistry all of it. I guess that makes me one of your "statistics".

5.3 million people are living at or below the poverty line. Right out of the US census. Why don't you be honest about what this number really represents?

This number for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY counted ILLEGAL ALIENS. UH HELLO!??!?! It also counted college students not living under parental guardianship.

Nice numbers. Too bad for you they don't nearly add up to your truth.

[Miscue]

Reread my post. I dont see where I said that was my only reason for who gets my vote. I was responding to the posters above me who question whether or not Kerry really earned those medals. Again its not important to me whether or not he "earned" all those medals as the the swift boat people say. The medals are moot--- Kerry actually put himself in harms way voluntarily. However, I feel though its a good start in judging the charactor of a man who did not have to risk his life in service to his country but did so anyways.

I read your post very carefully, do not pretend that I did not. You are waffling, and then repeating the same thing you already said in justification of what I challenged. You have not answered my question.

Perhaps you should reread what you wrote.
"For me I dont care about medals and ribbons and such. It all boils down to this simple fact. One man chose to risk his life willingly and put himself in harms way. The other man stayed home and its still unclear that he even served in the Air Guard at all."

"It all boils down to this simple fact," etc... this wording implies that it all boils down to this issue for you. Be more precise with your wording, if this was not your intent - otherwise we can only go by what you yourself wrote, and not what we think you meant to say.

What does putting one's self in harms way have to do with be qualified to run the nation? You say, character. Ok, fine.

You say the metals are moot, I say it's a sign of low character (read next sentence for explanation) - and you discount it because it weakens your argument. It was a symbolic gesture, correct? If he really believed in what he was doing, that's fine. But why did he throw away metals that were not his (as though they were), or his "ribbons." There is something seriously wrong with this. I'm sure this is moot to you, because it hurts your argument.

Why when the anti-war vets were camping out at DC, Kerry stays with his buddies instead of with them? Why does he ditch the anti-war vets group after he's gained popularity and is nationally known? A horse to ride on! Even Nixon said this of him decades ago, and nothing has changed. He rides the fence, hence the flip-flopping.

What kind of person gets a camera to do a re-enactment? What was he going to use this for? Keep in mind he had his mind set on running for office before going to Vietnam. A horse to ride on!

What kind of person accuses the US of war crimes as being common-place, and then later in life disagrees with how he said things? Someone who already capitalized on inflaming the US citizens, and then now those same words are harmful to him, thus he distances himself and blames it on his youth.

Now, let me repeat. How does "voluntarily putting one's self in harms way" have anything to do with the qualification of being president? Clinton dodged the draft altogether, yet he was president - while his opponent was shot down multiple times in WWII. And how many good presidents fought in wars, versus good presidents who did not? How many mediocre or bad ones fought in wars? And why does fighting in a war voluntarily make someone of good character like you imply? Hitler, Castro, Hussein, etc... they've all put themselves in harm's way before becoming the leader of a nation.

It's irrelevant!

[Koosh]

Bush has created zero net jobs during his term. I have news for you. The Government despite your wishes is NOT the end all be all job creator you wish it it to be. Here's a FACT for you: 5.4% unemployment rate. Guess what? That's LOWER than when Clinton ran for re-election.

Hey now, where would Tom Ridge be without Bush? He created that job for him, didn't he?

You referenced when Clinton ran for Re-Election, but how about when he left office? What was the unemployment rate then?

I honestly don't know, I'm not trying to jab you into an argument, or point out flaws... I am just looking for more information. I'm an undecided voter for this election, but I am firmly, strongly, and very much sure that our country will continue to exist no matter who is elected president.

What are some good non-biased sites to find out information on both these men?

[Miscue]

Hey now, where would Tom Ridge be without Bush? He created that job for him, didn't he?

You referenced when Clinton ran for Re-Election, but how about when he left office? What was the unemployment rate then?

I honestly don't know, I'm not trying to jab you into an argument, or point out flaws... I am just looking for more information. I'm an undecided voter for this election, but I am firmly, strongly, and very much sure that our country will continue to exist no matter who is elected president.

What are some good non-biased sites to find out information on both these men?

A person who can write something worthy of reading on these topics, isn't going to be undecided - so I'm not sure how you can get a completely unbiased take on things.

I think the trick is, to look at things that are definitely true. What they've done. What they've said... etc. And then, interpret this. Bad stuff about the candidate I prefer, I read into it further because it's important to me - and then I evaluate it. I want to make sure that I'm picking the right guy for the right reasons - and especially not based on emotion, but on brains.

[lather]

Facts? Let's take your "facts" one at a time shall we?

CIA agents Identified by the Bush Admin for political gain. Explain to me why it was that the agent in question was named on her husband's (Joe Wilson) website as CIA operative long before it was supposedly leaked by the Bush admin. Care to explain that FACT?

Facts here:

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?

Do a search for pakistani double agent compromised--he was turned and giving us valuable Al-Qeada eveidence, when the Bush admin released his name.

Cheney divested himself of his holdings in Haliburton. Keep trying to stick that particular bit of mud on the wall, maybe someday it'll stick.

A Haliburton subsidiary does business with Iran. And your point is? How about this FACT: France Germany and Russia all had ILLEGAL dealings with Iraq in VIOLATION of UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS. Does this not bother you in the least? Does it not bother you that these three countries fought tooth and nail to stop the US from removing Hussein from power? Apparently for their own selfish reasons? And to the mortal detriment of US Servicemen and women?

Is that what we are in Iraq for? To get rid of Hussein? As far as moral detriment ask anyone who served in 91 how they felt when we should have gotten rid of Hussein and didnt.
Haliburton is AMERICAN owned. I dont know about you but im voting in the United States. I dont get why you are so worried about what other countries corporations are involved in, but the actions of an American-owned company seem not to concern you.

Bush has created zero net jobs during his term. I have news for you. The Government despite your wishes is NOT the end all be all job creator you wish it it to be. Here's a FACT for you: 5.4% unemployment rate. Guess what? That's LOWER than when Clinton ran for re-election.

Im not expecting the Government to find me a job, I want a Government that supports and promotes a healthy economy. Please explain to me then why the Bush admin is the first admin in 72 years to have a zero net job rate. Maybe your fine with a jobless economy but Im not.


look below for facts

Median income has dropped 1500$US during this administration. Show me a link. I ain't buying this nonsense. The tax revenues along do not in any way shape or form substantiate your claim as anything but rhetoric and spin.

sorry cant find the link but pretty sure was on a Goldman Sachs report.

4.3 million have lost thir health care during the Bush admin. This one needs breaking down.
Anyone that changed jobs and was out of work for ONE DAY was counted as having lost their health care in this survey that is so often quoted. This included contract employees, temp workers and seasonal. How many million is that? I don't have health care. Know why? I pay for my services myself. Doctors fees, checkups, dentistry all of it. I guess that makes me one of your "statistics".

see links below



5.3 million people are living at or below the poverty line. Right out of the US census. Why don't you be honest about what this number really represents?

again see links


This number for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY counted ILLEGAL ALIENS. UH HELLO!??!?! It also counted college students not living under parental guardianship.

Nice numbers. Too bad for you they don't nearly add up to your truth.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5565.htm

http://www.mooneygreen.com/labor_archive.shtml

there ya go im sure you can refute any facts you want, heck you may even convince me the moon is made of green cheese

[Koosh]

A person who can write something worthy of reading on these topics, isn't going to be undecided - so I'm not sure how you can get a completely unbiased take on things.

I think the trick is, to look at things that are definitely true. What they've done. What they've said... etc. And then, interpret this. Bad stuff about the candidate I prefer, I read into it further because it's important to me - and then I evaluate it. I want to make sure that I'm picking the right guy for the right reasons - and especially not based on emotion, but on brains.

Yeah, thats what I figured... I just thought there had to be at least one website out there someone knew about that would cater to a person like me.

My roomate is your stereotypical college age liberal weiner. So whenever an attack ad comes on I try and spur him into a conversation about it. Like I said, I'm pretty much undecided at this point, but I use alot of information I read on AO (which seems to lean to the right) to help me in arguments with him. I just like playing devils advocate.

The College Republicans had a booth on campus the other day so i picked up about a dozen Pro-Bush bumper stickers. I had two of them on his car for about 3 days before he finally noticed them. He never mentioned anything about it to me, so I figure I'll wait a week and then slap two more on there

[lather]

I read your post very carefully, do not pretend that I did not. You are waffling, and then repeating the same thing you already said in justification of what I challenged. You have not answered my question.

Perhaps you should reread what you wrote.
"For me I dont care about medals and ribbons and such. It all boils down to this simple fact. One man chose to risk his life willingly and put himself in harms way. The other man stayed home and its still unclear that he even served in the Air Guard at all."

"It all boils down to this simple fact," etc... this wording implies that it all boils down to this issue for you. Be more precise with your wording, if this was not your intent - otherwise we can only go by what you yourself wrote, and not what we think you meant to say.

What does putting one's self in harms way have to do with be qualified to run the nation? You say, character. Ok, fine.

You say the metals are moot, I say it's a sign of low character (read next sentence for explanation) - and you discount it because it weakens your argument. It was a symbolic gesture, correct? If he really believed in what he was doing, that's fine. But why did he throw away metals that were not his (as though they were), or his "ribbons." There is something seriously wrong with this. I'm sure this is moot to you, because it hurts your argument.

Why when the anti-war vets were camping out at DC, Kerry stays with his buddies instead of with them? Why does he ditch the anti-war vets group after he's gained popularity and is nationally known? A horse to ride on! Even Nixon said this of him decades ago, and nothing has changed. He rides the fence, hence the flip-flopping.

What kind of person gets a camera to do a re-enactment? What was he going to use this for? Keep in mind he had his mind set on running for office before going to Vietnam. A horse to ride on!

What kind of person accuses the US of war crimes as being common-place, and then later in life disagrees with how he said things? Someone who already capitalized on inflaming the US citizens, and then now those same words are harmful to him, thus he distances himself and blames it on his youth.

Now, let me repeat. How does "voluntarily putting one's self in harms way" have anything to do with the qualification of being president? Clinton dodged the draft altogether, yet he was president - while his opponent was shot down multiple times in WWII. And how many good presidents fought in wars, versus good presidents who did not? How many mediocre or bad ones fought in wars? And why does fighting in a war voluntarily make someone of good character like you imply? Hitler, Castro, Hussein, etc... they've all put themselves in harm's way before becoming the leader of a nation.

It's irrelevant!

Good post Miscue (for real not being sarcastic)

Good points but answer me this. From reading your post im curious to what you think of Bush on the aircraft carrier in a naval aviator flight suit.