LIVE from the RNC in NYC

[PissedGodzilla]

Lets be honest, the news buisness is a buisness just like everything else. there in it for the mighty dollar. Right now, my guess, is that it is not popular to present stories that are anti-Kerry. I draw this conclusion from the amount of spending for anti-bush-527's. Presumably the folks that spend the top dollars are also those folks that spent massive amounts in non-elections years on advertising on some, not all, networks.

Its a big game to get our dollars, and we are just the pons

gtrsi, thanks for all the written word, it is good to see someone who keeps his head on straight while talking politics.

I agree with you here, except for one thing... I think it all depends on what news sources you use. There are just as many pro-Bush stations (FNC, for example) as there are pro-Kerry. it all depends on what channel you have on.

[1stdeadeye]

Back on topic now!

Congrats Facts. Sounds like it was fun! I caught Bush's speach while on vacation and thought it was well done.

As for PG, The problem with Kerry's war record is that he made it the cornerstone of his campaign, so it becomes fair game. Bush has been attacked by "independent" 527s for months now (The Media Fund, MoveOn.Org, etc...). Kerry is finally getting a taste of his own medicine. You can't have it both ways. He can't say attack Bush, but leave me alone. At least Bush has condemned al;l 527s as has John McCain!!

[Kellen_p8nt]

Back on topic now!

Congrats Facts. Sounds like it was fun! I caught Bush's speach while on vacation and thought it was well done.

As for PG, The problem with Kerry's war record is that he made it the cornerstone of his campaign, so it becomes fair game. Bush has been attacked by "independent" 527s for months now (The Media Fund, MoveOn.Org, etc...). Kerry is finally getting a taste of his own medicine. You can't have it both ways. He can't say attack Bush, but leave me alone. At least Bush has condemned al;l 527s as has John McCain!!

Congrats FoL you lucky lucky man. I would so love to be a delegate ot a convention. seems liek it would be fun.

Now we can argue as to who started the war thing.but its pointless regardsless. However "taste of his own medicine is silly". The liberal 527s from what i have seen have used accurate facts and truths to make their clims. SBVT have been so debunked its no longer funny. Thats not to say that all 527s agianst Kerry are liars. MOst certainly not. While 527 have freedom of speech, slander is not protected. If something can be shown to be false and used in this way i believe they should be forced to court.

I imagine, im not sure of this, that their are liberal 527s putting out ads tht are incorrect in their claims. HOwever I have not seen them so I cannot comment upon them. But the ones I have seen point to exact truths.

Oh and rooster. Calling people and their ideas retarded in no way solidifys your case.

[lather]

I think Zell's political career is over. From all but calling out Chris Matthews to a duel to criticizing Kerry for calling the US an occupying force <when Pres Bush has called the US occupiers for at least 3 speeches>, this irrational man is not gonna go any higher in the politcal arena. This guy is definetly not someone I would see as a level headed leader in any serious situation.

I think that one mistake that the Republicans made during the RNC was even if they could not prove there are WMD's in Iraq, they should have hammered home the argument that there was the means and potential for Iraq to build WMD. Instead, there is a strong focus on the failure to find any actual WMDs..

[RoadDawg]

Back on topic now!

Congrats Facts. Sounds like it was fun! I caught Bush's speach while on vacation and thought it was well done.

As for PG, The problem with Kerry's war record is that he made it the cornerstone of his campaign, so it becomes fair game. Bush has been attacked by "independent" 527s for months now (The Media Fund, MoveOn.Org, etc...). Kerry is finally getting a taste of his own medicine. You can't have it both ways. He can't say attack Bush, but leave me alone. At least Bush has condemned al;l 527s as has John McCain!!

If I remember right Mr Kerry has also condemed ads attacking Bush's "history" with war. In fact McCain asked him to and Kerry agreed and did the same. None the less both sides "attack" the other to make themselves look better but in fact they both look like crying babies.

[Miscue]

Back on topic now!

Congrats Facts. Sounds like it was fun! I caught Bush's speach while on vacation and thought it was well done.

As for PG, The problem with Kerry's war record is that he made it the cornerstone of his campaign, so it becomes fair game. Bush has been attacked by "independent" 527s for months now (The Media Fund, MoveOn.Org, etc...). Kerry is finally getting a taste of his own medicine. You can't have it both ways. He can't say attack Bush, but leave me alone. At least Bush has condemned al;l 527s as has John McCain!!

There is a LONG history behind the Swift Boat Vets - it's run by John O'Neill who has been fighting against Kerry since the Vietnam war, and has even debated against Kerry on national television. Their message is something that vets against Kerry have been saying for decades, well before Bush - since Nixon was in office - and they haven't really said anything that they haven't already before, years ago. This isn't about Bush+SwiftBoat, Bush is irrelevant. There's been bad blood for decades, and people have been pissed off at Kerry for a long time.

Who is on whose party makes no difference, they hate this guy and are making use of their Constitutional right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment adopted by a nation whose flag they fought for - for a duration longer than 4 months - without tossing their medals for show - without a video camera to re-enact scenes for politically motivated purposes (what kind of person does that?) - supporting an idea that they whole-heartedly believe in, not because it can be used as a horse to ride on for political gain. He supports whatever is best for him at that moment, hence the flip-flopping of issues and waffling rhetoric. Imagine the surprise of the anti-war vets when he resigned from the group, because they served his purposes and they no longer were needed. He supported them until it helped him no longer.

http://www.thbookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6527

[Kellen_p8nt]

There is a LONG history behind the Swift Boat Vets - it's run by John O'Neill who has been fighting against Kerry since the Vietnam war, and has even debated against Kerry on national television. Their message is something that vets against Kerry have been saying for decades, well before Bush - since Nixon was in office - and they haven't really said anything that they haven't already before, years ago. This isn't about Bush+SwiftBoat, Bush is irrelevant. There's been bad blood for decades, and people have been pissed off at Kerry for a long time.

Who is on whose party makes no difference, they hate this guy and are making use of their Constitutional right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment adopted by a nation whose flag they fought for - for a duration longer than 4 months - without tossing their medals for show - without a video camera to re-enact scenes for politically motivated purposes (what kind of person does that?) - supporting an idea that they whole-heartedly believe in, not because it can be used as a horse to ride on for political gain. He supports whatever is best for him at that moment, hence the flip-flopping of issues and waffling rhetoric. Imagine the surprise of the anti-war vets when he resigned from the group, because they served his purposes and they no longer were needed. He supported them until it helped him no longer.

http://www.thbookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6527

spin it however you like miscue. The Swift boat vets have been thuroughly debunked. NOne of them served on his boat. Hell O'Neill didnt get there till Kerry left. And one of them, the medical doctor, is either lying or OH NO! flipflopping. Because he gave Kerry golden reviews in the military.

Yes it is your constitutional right. BUt that ammendment only protects so far. This is what we call slander or libel. Hence its not protected. Read my earlier post. It goes both ways. If a 527 lied about BUsh then they should be reported.


And if vietnam is what people are voting on. Then well were scrwed either way. IM voting on key issues and facts.

[GT]

First,
Thanks godzilla for the kind words.

Second,
There is alot of just plain wrong info in this thread. To be honest it is not any of the posters faults, its just a simple lack of historical knowledge. Ill go ahead and address some of these.

spin it however you like miscue. The Swift boat vets have been thuroughly debunked.

actually this isnt true. the tail end of last week a complaint hit the IG's office, Inpsector general, think if them as the hated IAD of the gov't. The intresting thing was is that they get some pretty wild complaints and do not act on them, however they are presuing the Kerry complaint. From what I understand of the case it revolves around his Metal of Honor which has a V endorcement. If I am not mistaken there are no personel serving in the Navy right now that have the V endorcement. There are also some issues with the other medals.

This swift boat thing will not go away because what Kerry has said/done has changed a few times in the last year, and thats a fact. But, as you said, I hope we dont vote on previous war expierience. Like i said war experiance has nothing to do with running a war.

This is what we call slander or libel.

What the swift Boat vets are doing is nothing compared to the attacks that Bush has endoured. Maybe they are not playing those adds in your area, but calling the guy Hitler and a baby killer is way off base. Simple fact is the anit-bush people are spending 25:1 compared to the anti-kerry adds. Said thing is the personal attack smears are not sticking as well as the 9mil spent by groups like the swift vets. If you really dig into campign financing and expose who is paying for what you get a clear idea of which party is "for big buisness and the wealthy" and which is truly "for the people."

I think Zell's political career is over.

lol, no offense but you do not know what you are talking about. Zell is a retired marine and has been in public service for over 35 years. He came out of retiremnt by request from the governer. He became disgusted after heading to capitol hill and hanging out with his brethren dems. The problem with making speeches like that is that most people do not like to hear what they want. Sorry, some people are angry and it isnt all roses. Case in point 92% of the delegates at teh DNC were completely aganist the war, and here we have a canidate who is running on a war platform....... It's still beyond me why Kerry was the man of choice by hte DNC, I guess if Dean had not have exploded......


Sorry,
Guys I would love to type some more stuff here but I just dont have the time and since this isnt the best database for me to keep this info current I think I am going to have to do this on a different medium. I will consider opening up a blog and expound my opinion/knowledge on poltical subjects that folks post. If you guys are intrested in something like this off AO, LMK. Ill ask the wife if I can tag along on her Blog.

[lather]

Too bad it seems the people behind the swift boat ads--(Who are the same folks that smeared McCain during the republican race for president in 2000 btw) are being fairly sucessful at spreading misinformation.

For me I dont care about medals and ribbons and such. It all boils down to this simple fact. One man chose to risk his life willingly and put himself in harms way. The other man stayed home and its still unclear that he even served in the Air Guard at all. Has anyone taken up Gary Trudeau's offer of $10,000.00 for anyone with proof that they had even served with Bush? I heard one guy said he may have seen Bush reading a book at a airbase one time, but thats all I ever heard since.

Hey if you have health insurance or your company hasnt downsized size your position to give to someone in India I understand the appeal for Bush. If I lived in a gated community or worked for Haliburton, Hell id vote for him too.

Im still a little angry about how the bush people smeared McCain's service and questioned his ability to lead this nation in 2000. Im just disappointed they are doing it again and they dont have anything else to offer besides fear and anxiety to the American people.


Gtrsi--sorry didnt know that zell's career was already over if it wasnt for the Governor. Thanks for the info!

I like how you use Zell's 35 years of military service as the first example of his qualifications, yet you are very eager to question Kerry's service. How do you feel about McCains's service record? If you question Kerry's you must question McCain's as well, since the same people behind the swift boat ads were behind the McCain smearing.

[Miscue]

For me I dont care about medals and ribbons and such. It all boils down to this simple fact. One man chose to risk his life willingly and put himself in harms way.

Why does that qualify someone to be president? Why not pick someone who was there longer? Why not someone who volunteered on multiple tours? How about a fireman for president who has been in burning buildings? A policeman perhaps, who puts himself in harms way almost everyday for years? Perhaps he was once fired at or wounded while protecting the innocent? Does this qualify them to lead a nation?

[Miscue]

spin it however you like miscue. The Swift boat vets have been thuroughly debunked. NOne of them served on his boat. Hell O'Neill didnt get there till Kerry left. And one of them, the medical doctor, is either lying or OH NO! flipflopping. Because he gave Kerry golden reviews in the military.

Yes it is your constitutional right. BUt that ammendment only protects so far. This is what we call slander or libel. Hence its not protected. Read my earlier post. It goes both ways. If a 527 lied about BUsh then they should be reported.


And if vietnam is what people are voting on. Then well were scrwed either way. IM voting on key issues and facts.

Is it spin simply because you disagree? Perhaps you need to refresh on what "spin" is, and not recklessly misapply the word. You could discount everything you don't like to hear as spin, but that doesn't make it so. It is a mentally lazy approach that hijacks attempts at meaningful discussion.

You are making statements that I do not doubt for a second you believe are true. And I won't argue with that. Although I will say that you are misapplying the ideas of the 1st Amendment and libel/slander, and you can look at case studies and how laws have been applied to improve upon your ideas.

[lather]

Why does that qualify someone to be president? Why not pick someone who was there longer? Why not someone who volunteered on multiple tours? How about a fireman for president who has been in burning buildings? A policeman perhaps, who puts himself in harms way almost everyday for years? Perhaps he was once fired at or wounded while protecting the innocent? Does this qualify them to lead a nation?

Reread my post. I dont see where I said that was my only reason for who gets my vote. I was responding to the posters above me who question whether or not Kerry really earned those medals. Again its not important to me whether or not he "earned" all those medals as the the swift boat people say. The medals are moot--- Kerry actually put himself in harms way voluntarily. However, I feel though its a good start in judging the charactor of a man who did not have to risk his life in service to his country but did so anyways.

I am voting for Kerry but for many other reasons. (I would though have voted for McCain over either Bush and Kerry in a heartbeat). People losing healthcare benefits, outsourcing of jobs, the shrinking middle class and higher tax burden carried by the middle class as compared to the rich. The huge ballooning national debt. The record amount of money we are borrowing from other nations. Burdening our grandchildren with a HUGE debt etc....

Hmm lets see nonbid Haliburton contracts. Cheney still being on their payroll, a haliburton subsidarary doing business with Iran etc. I can go on without even touching the war.

[FactsOfLife]

What an awesome time we had in NYC, it still needs to be cut off and either made it's own state, or given to New Jersey.

But I digress...

Zell Miller is now my new hero. Think of it, he gives that speech, and two days later Clinton is having bypass surgery! Zell! Where were you 12 years ago! :P

Anyway, someone had mentioned that the Protest Warriors were kept separate from the protestors, not true.

Video of PW in hostile waters



I'm not exactly sure where the SBVT boys have been "thoroughly discredited", someone have some proof of this other than "they weren't on the same boat" and or "it wasn't the same doctor who signed the papers" and or "they're the same guys that attacked McCain"?

As to the first charge against the Swifties, no, they weren't on the same boat, what is NOT being said is that these other boats were within feet if not actually TOUCHING Kerry's boat. To say that they wouldn't have known what was going on in Kerry's boat is ludicris.

The second charge about the doctors, it is common practice to have one doctor as the head honcho that oversees all the other doctors in a given area. The doctor that actually saw Kerry and the doctor that signed off on whatever paperwork could very well have been two different doctors. Doesn't make the claim any less valid. The service writer signs off on the work the mechanic did on your car. Does that make the mechanic suddenly irrelevant?

The third one is a more damning one, as they won't admit that one of these Swifites was ON the McCain election commitee as an advisor. Explain that to me please. Kinda deflates the whole argument that they attacked McCain and they're attacking Kerry as the same guys. Uh hello? One of them worked for McCain, uh baking powder? Exsqueeze me?

As for Kerry's service in Viet Nam.

Did he serve? Yep. Did anyone catch the number of times he was THANKED for that service at the RNC? It was several for those of you playing at home. His service was APPLAUDED by the audience as it should have been.

What the left has mis-stated over and over again is that we are NOT questioning his service.

We ARE questioning his story, which keeps changing. We ARE questioning his conduct when he got back. We ARE questioning his 20+ years as a US Senator. Hello? He has a very easy to follow record here. It is NOT an attack to point out the fact that his voting record is even more liberal than Kennedy's is. It is NOT an attack to piont out that his story about how he conducted himself in Viet Nam, and how he conducted himself when he came back keeps changing. I mean come on, his OWN journal has blatant discrepancies in it.

Some one metioned that Gary Trudeau has a 10K dollar bounty out for anyone that will come forward and say they served with President Bush during his tour in the Texas ANG. He owes several people money. And, unlike Kerry, President Bush has already released his service records, why won't Kerry do the same?

As for this complete nonsense about the middle class carrying more of the tax burden than the rich. What utter HOGWASH. Latest figures DIRECTLY from the IRS:

Top 20% of taxpayers pay 80% of the taxes.

Top 50% pay over 96% of ALL taxes.

IRS excel file itself showing the FACTS

Jobs lost? How about a LOWER unemployment rate than Clinton had going into his second term. As of today the jobless rate is 5.4%. For you optimistic, but math challenged types, that 94.6% working! This isn't cause for weeping and gnashing, it's a cause for celebration! It's disingenuous in the EXTREME to quote 3 million or 2 million jobs lost but IGNORE that fact.

The deficit it huge. Uh we're at war. Hello?

I don't particularly care about Kerry's war record. What I do care about is the fact that he had to dredge up Viet Nam, a seriously painful time in this country's history again. Those of us that were alive and watched it on TV, while I waited to see my dad on there, had done a pretty good job of getting past it. Thanks to Kerry we get to relive that whole thing again. That's what people are mad about.

[PissedGodzilla]

As for this complete nonsense about the middle class carrying more of the tax burden than the rich. What utter HOGWASH. Latest figures DIRECTLY from the IRS:

Top 20% of taxpayers pay 80% of the taxes.

Top 50% pay over 96% of ALL taxes.

IRS excel file itself showing the FACTS

I have to give credit where credit is due, that was a thoughtful and informative post Facts, good one, seriously.

my only question is on the part I quoted you on. Yes your fidures are correct, but the figures are for the years before the current President (albiet 2001 is on there). I wonder if the percentages are different now with Pres. Bush's tax cuts taken into account? I am guessing those years aren't published yet, I know that takes time. I just wanted to point that out.

[GT]

I am going to toss in a few simple points here:

People losing healthcare benefits

Kerry's plan is going to cost bewteen 1.1 and 3 trillion dollars, and that is only over the next 9 and not 10 years, that he has perposed. BTW: who is losing health care bennfits other than those that are unemployed.

outsourcing of jobs

I am not sure how the president can stop this. Its said when folks lose thier jobs but when a company is no longer able to compete in the global market they have to fins alternate ways to cut costs. In america our largest cost is the human resource/labor. Since the unemployment numbers are pretty low its a moot point and little more than political hype. Kerry nor Bush can stop what companies CHOOSE to do in a free society.

the shrinking middle class and higher tax burden carried by the middle class as compared to the rich.

This is completely false and nothing more than political hype. The rich pay way, way more taxes and its wrong. Our tax code in the US penlizes the top 10-20% of americans for beign successful and that is wrong.

The huge ballooning national debt.

The great irony here is if you compare the national debit to the debit held by the public you will soon relize what a hypocritical statement that is. Infact the public debit is about 10 times greater than the national debit, but I digress. The only way to get into debit is to spend money, the irony here is that if Bush did not cut taxes we would have an even higher national debit. Bush lowered taxes but incresed tax revenue, basic supply side economics, and it stimluated the economy to boot.
National debit is cyclical. Durring years of prosperaty the debit is paid off and we are in a surplus, durring years of lower revune debit is accumlated. The effect of 9/11 alone has had a huge impact, but it seems, that neither party is willing to quantify it.

borrowing from other nations

You make it sound like we are trying to get a handout from other countries. Do alittle research on how we "borrow" from other contries.

Hmm lets see nonbid Haliburton contracts. Cheney still being on their payroll,

This is just as moronic as saying Kerry is flip flopper. The only time Haliburton has ever recieved a no-bid contract was under Clinton. Typically every 5 years the fed developes a contengency plan for big events like war. They place a contract for bid from different companies, BTW: please find out for me how many companies can do what Haliburton does. and Haliburton won that contract for the next few years. Cheney, I believe, recieved a 20 million dollar package when he left Haliburton. He doesnt work for them anymore. The irony here is that all you here about Cheney is the Haliburton BS and not that he has worked for the public service for almost 30 years, nor the fact that he has worked under FOUR presidents.

SO please lets drop the Haliburton, Cheney crap all it does is lead to a childish argument that has no basis in fact.