LIVE from the RNC in NYC

[Miscue]

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5565.htm

http://www.mooneygreen.com/labor_archive.shtml

there ya go im sure you can refute any facts you want, heck you may even convince me the moon is made of green cheese

Where does their information and statistics come from? Why did the writer not cite sources? And why did the author forget to include that AIDS cases grew in number while Bush was in office?

[Miscue]

Good post Miscue (for real not being sarcastic)

Good points but answer me this. From reading your post im curious to what you think of Bush on the aircraft carrier in a naval aviator flight suit.

I think that his being on an aircraft carrier in an aviator suit has not been a subject of his campaign.

I do not doubt it was planned as a photo opportunity. Maybe a, "Hey look at me, I'm a pilot." or "I was in the military, please vote for me!" But he's not pretending to be something he is or was not, and is not staging a contrieved re-enactment of what he did in service. And he got to have some fun flying a jet, letting the Navy guy do the carrier landing.

There is no element of "realness" to question, with him being on an aircraft carrier - regardless of whether he took advantage of privileges or not while in service. He was a pilot, let him wear an aviator suit - he earned his wings. He's the president, let him take a joyride in a jet.

But I am horrified that he would take a joyride, when that gas money could have bought books for school children.

[lather]

I think that his being on an aircraft carrier in an aviator suit has not been a subject of his campaign.

I do not doubt it was planned as a photo opportunity. Maybe a, "Hey look at me, I'm a pilot." or "I was in the military, please vote for me!" But he's not pretending to be something he is or was not, and is not staging a contrieved re-enactment of what he did in service. And he got to have some fun flying a jet, letting the Navy guy do the carrier landing.

There is no element of "realness" to question, with him being on an aircraft carrier - regardless of whether he took advantage of privileges or not while in service. He was a pilot, let him wear an aviator suit - he earned his wings. He's the president, let him take a joyride in a jet.

But I am horrified that he would take a joyride, when that gas money could have bought books for school children.

I guess what im trying to say is this. A lot of Bush supporters are quick to question Kerry's motives during the Vietnam war. But George Bush's "service" is never questioned. He was absent for over a year. Is it possible his dad pulled a few strings? Isnt it a concern for you he has a problem meeting his commitments? I mean to be so focused about Kerry's service accomplisments which are much greater than Bush's just seems really bizarre.

[Miscue]

I guess what im trying to say is this. A lot of Bush supporters are quick to question Kerry's motives during the Vietnam war. But George Bush's "service" is never questioned. He was absent for over a year. Is it possible his dad pulled a few strings? Isnt it a concern for you he has a problem meeting his commitments? I mean to be so focused about Kerry's service accomplisments which are much greater than Bush's just seems really bizarre.

You're trying to compare issues that are related on a superficial level. Of course they are not being questioned like Kerry's issues - Kerry is making his military service a staple of his campaign, thus fair game and appropriate for scrutiny. Bush is not doing this.

In the past 4 years, has there ever been a situation where his "absence" hindered his ability to be president? Has he disappeared for a year as president, by pulling strings (As president, you'd think he'd be able to)? And this is all relevant, how?

Yeah, I'd be worried about a president who did not honor his commitments. Luckily, Bush has a 4 year track record that shows me he does honor his commitments - regardless of what he may or may not have done previously. I'd expect him to do the same for the next 4 years.

Kerry says he should be president because of his military record. Bush is not doing this. Kerry made it an issue, and it's a big part of his campaigns - evident in his speeches. Bush is not making his service an issue, but rather his track record in office among other things.

Do you understand the difference I'm getting at, and how it is a logical fallacy to try to equate the two?

[FactsOfLife]

Hey now, where would Tom Ridge be without Bush? He created that job for him, didn't he?

You referenced when Clinton ran for Re-Election, but how about when he left office? What was the unemployment rate then?

I honestly don't know, I'm not trying to jab you into an argument, or point out flaws... I am just looking for more information. I'm an undecided voter for this election, but I am firmly, strongly, and very much sure that our country will continue to exist no matter who is elected president.

What are some good non-biased sites to find out information on both these men?

I'm looking, but it was going UP. We still hadn't felt the full effects of the Clinton recession and the drastic slam we took from 9-11.

It's irritating to no end to see liberals scream NO JOBS UNDER BUSH! Uh hello? World Trade Centers? Pentagon? Field in PA? Any of this ringing a bell?

It is frankly AMAZING that President Bush has managed to get this country back on track in such a short amount of time with his TAX CUTS!

This isn't directed at you in particular Koosh, just more thoughts as I get them...

[FactsOfLife]

I guess what im trying to say is this. A lot of Bush supporters are quick to question Kerry's motives during the Vietnam war. But George Bush's "service" is never questioned. He was absent for over a year. Is it possible his dad pulled a few strings? Isnt it a concern for you he has a problem meeting his commitments? I mean to be so focused about Kerry's service accomplisments which are much greater than Bush's just seems really bizarre.

Once again I'm calling BS flag here. Show the documentary evidence of President Bush's supposed absense or shut the hell up about it.

His record of the last 4 years alone is qualification enough for his re-election.

Even if we toss out everything prior to each candidates public life, the Bush Presidency and Kerry's senate career pale in comparison.

I notice how Kerry is mute on his 20+ years in the senate. Why is that? He's gone a dredged up a hugely DIVISIVE subject to be the cornerstone of this campaign, he's touted his new found love for his service in VN. Wasn't this the same guy that spit on US service men and women who were still in country, and in North Vietnamese prison camps with his senate testimony?

Isn't this the same guy that threw his medals away, then it was his ribbons, then they were someone elses?

Even if we throw out all the other people coming forward today who were there with Kerry and contradict his history in VN, even if we ONLY take Kerry's OWN owrds and journal, he's indicted himself for war crimes.

Because if he saw these horrendous things being done and didn't report them, that's a military crime. If he commited them himself, that's a crime.

This guy has so many problems it's ridiculous. And he wants to run the country? He isn't fit to even be a friggin SENATOR much less CIC.

[lather]

Once again I'm calling BS flag here. Show the documentary evidence of President Bush's supposed absense or shut the hell up about it.

His record of the last 4 years alone is qualification enough for his re-election.

Even if we toss out everything prior to each candidates public life, the Bush Presidency and Kerry's senate career pale in comparison.

I notice how Kerry is mute on his 20+ years in the senate. Why is that? He's gone a dredged up a hugely DIVISIVE subject to be the cornerstone of this campaign, he's touted his new found love for his service in VN. Wasn't this the same guy that spit on US service men and women who were still in country, and in North Vietnamese prison camps with his senate testimony?

Isn't this the same guy that threw his medals away, then it was his ribbons, then they were someone elses?

Even if we throw out all the other people coming forward today who were there with Kerry and contradict his history in VN, even if we ONLY take Kerry's OWN owrds and journal, he's indicted himself for war crimes.

Because if he saw these horrendous things being done and didn't report them, that's a military crime. If he commited them himself, that's a crime.

This guy has so many problems it's ridiculous. And he wants to run the country? He isn't fit to even be a friggin SENATOR much less CIC.

Documents and quotes you requested:

http://www.failureisimpossible.com/essays/gwb_cic.htm

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

Ever read Band of Brothers? Was about about a combat company in WWII. Those men were probably the best combat company the Army had. They participated in a lot of bloody fights against crack German units and gave far more than they got. They also described some events in the book by Stephen Ambrose that could be construed as war crimes by your definition. I think of them as heroes, as ordinary men doing extraordinary things in a place that was a hell I couldnt even imagine. I guess you would find out if they was Democrat or Republican first before you would label them criminals or heroes. The difference between you and me is I dont care what their politics were. To me E Co was ALL heroes...

Those documents good enough? Calling BS to anything that conflicts with your point of view is getting kinda old. So ya better scamper back to the country club and think of new premptive halftruths and rumors. Better make it fast though , working class Americans are beginning to realize that Cheney/Bush do NOT have their best interests in mind..

And you think that a man who was all but AWOL during his ANG service and during 911 plus a VP that would be in prison if he commited his crimes in 2004 instead of 1998-1999 are a better choice for POTUS? lol

I agree Kerry isnt my first choice for POTUS. But ABTB. Too Bad Sarbanes-Oxley wasnt around in 1998

[GT]

Gtrsi--well so far you called me ignorant and moronic. I have no problem if thats what you think. Please remember as you mature and get some experience in the real world you may find its not always in your best interest to call others a moron.

I dont think I called you anything. If I did feel free to quote me and I will, rightfully so, appologise for those actions.

You guys still have not answeredany of my questions. BTW: guys anyone can make a website and site thier own surveys or studies, however giving people the raw data to draw thier own conclusions is the true power. The intresting thing here is I have anctually asked for raw data that you guys quoted and I still dont have it.

There are so many issues in this post that it is impossible to keep anything on topic. To bad we dont have a secret poly sci forum on AO....

[lather]

I dont think I called you anything. If I did feel free to quote me and I will, rightfully so, appologise for those actions.

You guys still have not answeredany of my questions. BTW: guys anyone can make a website and site thier own surveys or studies, however giving people the raw data to draw thier own conclusions is the true power. The intresting thing here is I have anctually asked for raw data that you guys quoted and I still dont have it.

There are so many issues in this post that it is impossible to keep anything on topic. To bad we dont have a secret poly sci forum on AO....

Well if it wasnt your intent then I apologize.

I agree any facts can be construed one way or another. You can argue the glass is half full and I can argue its half empty. I think the best way is to decide is to look at both sides and make up your own mind from there. I cant change Facts of Life's or Miscue's beliefs on what is best for this country anymore than they can change mine. I understand that what they believe in is for the good of the country and that they truly care about America's future. I enjoy discussions like this, both Miscue and Facts do have intelligent and good points, but we just have a difference of opinion on what we think would be the best course of action to take. I will defend what I believe is best for America though vehemently at times, but if I met any one of them in person (if anyone ever came out to Hawaii) the beer would be on me as it is nothing personal.

[PissedGodzilla]

I was wondering if FoL and gtrsi saw the news article about the new allegations against President Bush's record on 60 Minutes tonight? do you guys have any comment? I'm not trying to incite anything, I just wanted your opinion...

[Miscue]

Well if it wasnt your intent then I apologize.

I agree any facts can be construed one way or another. You can argue the glass is half full and I can argue its half empty. I think the best way is to decide is to look at both sides and make up your own mind from there. I cant change Facts of Life's or Miscue's beliefs on what is best for this country anymore than they can change mine. I understand that what they believe in is for the good of the country and that they truly care about America's future. I enjoy discussions like this, both Miscue and Facts do have intelligent and good points, but we just have a difference of opinion on what we think would be the best course of action to take. I will defend what I believe is best for America though vehemently at times, but if I met any one of them in person (if anyone ever came out to Hawaii) the beer would be on me as it is nothing personal.

Yup, same goal - different ideas on how to get there. Regardless of what happens this election, it makes no difference to me who is president so long as we "get there." If Bush does it, great. If Kerry does it, I'll vote for him next election. Results are my bottom-line, and I'm willing to forgive who did or said what beforehand.

[FactsOfLife]

Documents and quotes you requested:

http://www.failureisimpossible.com/essays/gwb_cic.htm

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp



Ever read Band of Brothers? Was about about a combat company in WWII. Those men were probably the best combat company the Army had. They participated in a lot of bloody fights against crack German units and gave far more than they got. They also described some events in the book by Stephen Ambrose that could be construed as war crimes by your definition. I think of them as heroes, as ordinary men doing extraordinary things in a place that was a hell I couldnt even imagine. I guess you would find out if they was Democrat or Republican first before you would label them criminals or heroes. The difference between you and me is I dont care what their politics were. To me E Co was ALL heroes...

Those documents good enough? Calling BS to anything that conflicts with your point of view is getting kinda old. So ya better scamper back to the country club and think of new premptive halftruths and rumors. Better make it fast though , working class Americans are beginning to realize that Cheney/Bush do NOT have their best interests in mind..

And you think that a man who was all but AWOL during his ANG service and during 911 plus a VP that would be in prison if he commited his crimes in 2004 instead of 1998-1999 are a better choice for POTUS? lol

I agree Kerry isnt my first choice for POTUS. But ABTB. Too Bad Sarbanes-Oxley wasnt around in 1998

Not one SINGLE document on that site shows Bush to be AWOL. You've managed to take the truth and warp it to whatever it is you want it to read.

the document here reads that he was not at the reporting base. UH OHHHHH He's awol! No wait, it says he moved due to a CIVILIAN job and has been performing his duties in a non flying capacity at the base in Alabama. Last I checked this was NOT BEING AWOL. No matter how you libs want to try and distort this crap it ain't gonna fly, because I am gonna call the BS flag every damned time.

And WTF is this crap about the President now being awol during 9-11??? Are you high?

If anyone's been AWOL during his presidency it was CLINTON.



Just so everyone here is aware of what these documents on these websites look like for anyone wanting to look at them:



Now, on to the charges leveled by Dan Lather here...

Yes, I have read BoB. Good book. My definition of war crimes is EXACTLY the same one I had to abide by while I was in the Corps. The same one every other serviceman and woman is bound by to adhere to. Kerry by HIS OWN WORDS has admitted to acts that not only violate the Geneva Convention, but every other US Military law and doctrine. This isn't MY definition, it's the US Services definition. Try to pay attention here.

As far as your assertion that I need to scamper back to the country club. I belong to a GUN CLUB. Golf SUCKS. It's a waste of a perfectly good rifle range.

Your assertion that I am somehow not part of the working class is utterly ridiculous and once again shows your incredible ignorance. I own my own successful business. Everything I have today I earned. Something you seem to not be able to grasp. I didn't get an effing PENNY from anyone to do it, and I ask for none when times are hard. I sold nearly every toy I hard earned over 20 years to get the capital to do it, while going to school getting my degrees.

As far as Bush/Cheney not having my best interests at heart for being a working class slob, I'll take their economic plan over "I'm going to raise your taxes" Kerry. I already pay obscene, confiscatory taxes to an already BLOATED government. Apparently you don't pay enough taxes.

[FactsOfLife]

I was wondering if FoL and gtrsi saw the news article about the new allegations against President Bush's record on 60 Minutes tonight? do you guys have any comment? I'm not trying to incite anything, I just wanted your opinion...

I stopped believing anything on 60 minutes when they stuck the rocket engine in the Chevy pickups gas tank to make it dramtically explode for a "news story".

I'd no more trust anything that band of journalistic failures had to say, than I'd believe that OBL didn't still want to attack us and make nice nice.

[FactsOfLife]

Well if it wasnt your intent then I apologize.

I agree any facts can be construed one way or another. You can argue the glass is half full and I can argue its half empty. I think the best way is to decide is to look at both sides and make up your own mind from there. I cant change Facts of Life's or Miscue's beliefs on what is best for this country anymore than they can change mine. I understand that what they believe in is for the good of the country and that they truly care about America's future. I enjoy discussions like this, both Miscue and Facts do have intelligent and good points, but we just have a difference of opinion on what we think would be the best course of action to take. I will defend what I believe is best for America though vehemently at times, but if I met any one of them in person (if anyone ever came out to Hawaii) the beer would be on me as it is nothing personal.

I agree with 100%. I have no real personal animosity towards you. I do have issues with your statements. You have them with mine. Fair enough, that's why I served my country. To make sure we were both able to continue to freely spout our particular brands of nonsense.

I do of course think you're affected by some kind of mental disorder, but that's another thread....

[lather]

I agree with 100%. I have no real personal animosity towards you. I do have issues with your statements. You have them with mine. Fair enough, that's why I served my country. To make sure we were both able to continue to freely spout our particular brands of nonsense.

I do of course think you're affected by some kind of mental disorder, but that's another thread....

hahahha

We probably have common ground than you might think. I am a card carrying member of the NRA (love my G31). And I did vote for Bush senior twice. Not to mention PB and mags. Probably share the same mental disorder too....