How do we fix AO?

[fcpchop]

mango- well the way i look at it, atleast we can have a good forum for a couple of years, and hopefully we dont end up back where we started but even if it does we can have a couple of years of enjoyment

[FreakBaller12]

honestly mango, I was thinkign the same exact thing, but that maybe the only solution, or the c omplete wrong solution, hard to say.

[Pickle]

I think public complaining about moderator actions (such as a ban, sig. editing, etc) should be grounds for a ban. There are PMs and e-mail for this type of thing, noone else needs to see the whining.

Amen!

If someone causes a problem, banning him will just cause more people to complain. For every popular member that gets banned, a few followers go with him. At that rate, nobody will be left.

Only the problem children will be leaving. It's kind of like removing the annoying kid from class. Yeah, one or two kids may go with him but the rest of the class is glad he's gone.

Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

Good post

I personally am leaning towards stricter rules. The mature folks will be uneffected. The less mature will be. And, I think this would be fair - and get some results that would be beneficial.

When people register with AO they agree to abide by the rules. This is not a democracy. Increase the penalties, enforce the rules to the letter.

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

I know as a non mod i am along with the rest of AO not owed an explination for why people were banned and so on. However, if it was explained to the public why there were banned perhaps it would clear things up and hurt less feelings of their "friends/elder members."

If you know you are not owed an explanation then don't ask for one. Especially if it does not apply to you.

AO sucks because of people treating it like PBN...

It soon became "ok" to flame people, instead of helping someone, people will simply flame them. In some threads this is not prominate (in which the old AO appears to shine through), but it is almost everywhere. People post stupid, and pointless threads because they find it funny. Back in the day, every thread had meaning or purpose, every thread had something you could enjoy reading. There was nothing pointless or stupid. Nobody flamed without reason.

Yep. Hence, inforce the rules or make new rules to rid this plague. If the posters don't like it they can leave. There is no respect for other people here. AO is becoming PBN's little brother.

[thecavemankevin]

If you know you are not owed an explanation then don't ask for one. Especially if it does not apply to you.

misque asked for my recomendation to help fix the problem...that is my recomendation, take it or leave it

[xmetal2001]

I think one of the main differences is that when I first came to AO, it was a group of Paintball loving mag fanatics. When friendly corner was added, everybody got along because they were here to talk paintball, and friendly off-topic conversations were naturally pleasant with people who share the same passion.

As AO has grown and become more well known, the userbase has shifted to a more off-topic/friendly corner type of crowd. Alot of people have never have/have stopped posting in Paintball Talk. Because of this change in the attitude of the userbase, we inevitably are going to have more disagreements and bad blood between members. And of course the obvious effect: we attract non-paintball loving members who just want to come screw around.

[CoolHand]

It seems to me like everyone has an agenda when they post now. Its like being in a spy movie ----> Bond - "Careful! One false move [dramatic pause] and a flame-fest erupts!"

I used to help people out, and do whatever I could, but now its become such a chore to decide if I want to risk the possible flamage that a mistook suggestion could bring that I really think twice before I post.

In most cases, I just don't say anything, and that's a real shame, not so much because I'm anything special (believe me, I'm not), but because there has to be other people who are smarter and more useful than me who could contribute, but choose not to because of the hightened chance of irritation and conflict over nothing.

I would really like to see a PB forum (doesn't have to be here, but that would be nice) which is invitation only, for just the discussion of ideas (both techincal and philosophical), without the need to be so guarded.

I'm not for supplanting AO, but rather buttressing it with a new outlet for the technically inclined.

That's my take, as always, your mileage may vary.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I have it in my power (I use that term loosely) to at least provide the place for this to happen. -----> Go Here.

There is nothing there yet, because I litterally just put it up. Viewing will be restriced to registered users, and access to post is limited by permissions. If you'd like to be able to post, PM me over there and I'll get the first few core guys set up. The rest would be by invitation.

[RRfireblade]

In a Nut Shell:

The forum was best when the gun was more popular than the forum,now it's the other way around.

[fire1811]

start charging a few dollars to register. then most of the people here will actually want to be here.

[MantisMag]

i cry for AO. it is falling before the onslaught of stupid. since 2003 our members have been getting younger and dumber. i'm sure there's been some good members in there. but it seems most of the really annoying ones are all in that time period. i think footemps had it right when he said it's a matter of numbers. way back when we only had one postwhore at a time. by the time the next postwhore came along the previous one had been acculturated to AO. they had become one of us. now there's so many of them that they think their behavior is acceptable.

the content in friendly corner is suffering. there's so much garbage and nothing to talk about. most threads are of the "hey look at this" variety. some of them are good, like phil's scooters or whatever other projects people like to work on. unfortunately i'm not interested so i take a look when they're first posted and move on. most however are just dumb things around the internet. that's all well and good but that seems to be all there is now. the problem isn't that these threads exist. it's that they're all there is.

people say the mods are stricter. you should have seen them back when i joined. army was the strictest about cussing. i remember miscue editing quite a few posts. back then anything remotely like cussing was edited. repeat offenders got a temp ban. civility was strictly enforced. you could argue all you want but personal attacks were not tolerated. once again edit/warning then banning. for a while i think the mods were a little looser. personally i think they chose the wrong time for it. now they're cracking down and everybody's upset. i don't really agree with all the bannings that have taken place. many of them were deserved but some i don't really see why. then again i may not be aware of some of the circumstances.

so anyway here's the short answers to the questions
Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?
yeah it's busted. if AO was a person it'd be fat lazy and stupid and just about ready to die of a heart attack.

What made AO good?
we used to be a real community. we were small and basically all knew each other. i barely posted (i thought posting on five threads at once was a lot) and people knew who i was.

What still makes it good?
honestly, not much. the forums are free of pr0n and spam. there's also very little circumvention of the cuss filter.

What has changed?
wave after wave of stupid. mods were lax on some of the more minor infractions for a while.

How do we improve it?
i don't know. fixing AO would be something of an experiiment in social engineering. how do you foster community and intelligent conversation?

[Bad_Dog]

I make it a point to not try to annoy the moderators.. I don't want there job, I don't envy the decisions they have to make, and as such I really beleive that I should, most of the time, not open my mouth.

you said it all brother... people have to understand that AO is whatever we make of it; whether that be good, bad, ugly, polite, or whatever... With the recent onslaught of new members (and I'm not pointing fingers) the attutude has become less "official" to me. Like when people used to post something (like information on a subject) you could count on the fact that what they said was right. Nowadays people seem to post what they think is right, without actually knowing an answer (and that includes old members as well). That to me has turned AO's creditability from an informative forum into a somewhat confusing second guessing expierience.

Other things like the usage of proper punctuation, and the buseness like presentation that once was used when responding with information all adds up to the class act that we so dearly miss.

My advise would be to concentrate on the small details that we love about AO, dont let your typing skills go down the drain even if the majority of members uze thi3r l33t internet ling0... Posting only when you're 100% sure on a subject is key also, if your any less sure about the information you provide than be curteous and admit you're only 80% sure your solution will work, it will make your post 200% more creditable. Remember that your opinion is your opinion and not a fact at any time or place, and when someone asks for your opinion it is not your job to overwhelm them and push them one way or another. Respect each other as you wish to be respected, its a simple version of the game of life... just because you communicate through a keyboard doesnt mean you should act any differently.

bah, what do I need to get into this for... I hate politics

[CoolHand]

you said it all brother... people have to understand that AO is whatever we make of it; whether that be good, bad, ugly, polite, or whatever... With the recent onslaught of new members (and I'm not pointing fingers) the attutude has become less "official" to me. Like when people used to post something (like information on a subject) you could count on the fact that what they said was right. Nowadays people seem to post what they think is right, without actually knowing an answer (and that includes old members as well). That to me has turned AO's creditability from an informative forum into a somewhat confusing second guessing expierience.

Other things like the usage of proper punctuation, and the buseness like presentation that once was used when responding with information all adds up to the class act that we so dearly miss.

My advise would be to concentrate on the small details that we love about AO, dont let your typing skills go down the drain even if the majority of members uze thi3r l33t internet ling0... Posting only when you're 100% sure on a subject is key also, if your any less sure about the information you provide than be curteous and admit you're only 80% sure your solution will work, it will make your post 200% more creditable. Remember that your opinion is your opinion and not a fact at any time or place, and when someone asks for your opinion it is not your job to overwhelm them and push them one way or another. Respect each other as you wish to be respected, its a simple version of the game of life... just because you communicate through a keyboard doesnt mean you should act any differently.

bah, what do I need to get into this for... I hate politics

That was a good post, and with the exception of the newfound hostility, hits on every one of the things I miss.

[Eric Cartman]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred

Excellent post in my opinion.

Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.

I'm not saying that the mods should need to justify everything they do, but I feel it's human nature to draw conclusions from the information that is available. I've seen threads closed and I really had no idea why it happened. Back in the day when there were threads about flaming Sam, I "took the black pill" and I also read Sam's rebuttal and I felt these sources gave me the info I needed to draw my own conclusions about the people involved. That's also another reason I liked lurking around the "AO related drama" forum on the Thorums. If all that is seen is a lot of threads being closed and a lot of bans being handed out, I'm not surprised that people are coming to negative conclusions. I'm not saying these conclusions are necessarily correct, but I understand how they are arrived at.

...Only the problem children will be leaving. It's kind of like removing the annoying kid from class. Yeah, one or two kids may go with him but the rest of the class is glad he's gone...

Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one think that the class is diminished by the departure of intelligent & entertaining posters like Thordic and LPB.

AO is the very first forum I ever posted on and I've spent more time here than any other place on the web. I hope it can recover, I really do, but I'm not holding my breath.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I would really like to see a PB forum (doesn't have to be here, but that would be nice) which is invitation only, for just the discussion of ideas (both techincal and philosophical), without the need to be so guarded.

I'm not for supplanting AO, but rather buttressing it with a new outlet for the technically inclined.

That's my take, as always, your mileage may vary.

Awsome idea. Count me in....if you think I'm deserving of course.

[CoolHand]

Awsome idea. Count me in....if you think I'm deserving of course.

Um . . Yeah, I'd say you'll pass muster.

Anyone who owns a Bridgeport, and knows how to use it is automatically invited.

And really, I don't want to be the guy that has that say, once a few people are there.

I'd rather it be self regulating, like the Tinker's Guild, only a little less public. Ideally, I'd come and back up the database every so often, and maybe partake in discussion when the mood takes me. Very "hands off". The mods and things like that will all work themselves out in the long run, I think (/hope).

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Here is my synopsis AO has gotten boring, plain and simple.

There is no more Tom Kaye, no more new mag parts coming out, no more chat parties, and that just mainly effects PB talk minus maybe the chat parties.

There has always been immaturity just look at the spree of revolutions, but the thing is it was taken in agood natured spirirt. People were going with it and having a bit of fun. Hell even Tom got involved with the olde das untermag revolution.

People are just becoming too serious, friendly corner used to have a mix of A) Fairly flame free political threads, and other thought provoking threads B) Just plain silly threads full of stupid jokes and C) everything else sports, common interests etc...

But now it seems that there are less and less of A) which can be considered goood in one light, but it seems to be taking away from the intellectual quality of AO. And B) seem to either get out of hand, or be filled with a bunch of "Negative Nellies" C) is still around, but I never found threads like that to be the heart.

So basically people need to just relax, take it all in that this is just the internet. And then turn around and be able to speak their mind on an issue, and just as easily spout off some incoherent babble, which we can all laugh and jeer at.

Why can't we be friends?