Star Wars Episode 1-3, A LOST HOPE

[Vex]

And oddly enough there was more to the movies than Anakin becoming Darth Vader...

And yes the fact that I knew the resolution did hurt it, but it didn't have to. Have you ever read a novel that starts out at the end and then leads up to it? Some of them are done very well and it doesn't bother the reader. This did bother me.

There is also a lot of "wasted" time. Why did we need Podracing? Why did we need Naboo? Why couldn't Jar Jar die in the first movie? Preferably in an opening battle scene... Why did Anakin have to come across as a whiney who had the mental maturity of a 12 yr old?

I think that if Lucas would have cut out a lot of stuff, and added more "explanation" it would have been even better. I think Episode III would be cool if it were only a few years before Episode IV and the plot was Vader hunting down the Jedi and it causing an inner conflict. And had some snippets of Luke and Leia growing up maybe? And the conflict between the rebellion and the "Empire". Episode II could have been about him having kids and becoming Vader and Episode I could have had him becoming a Jedi.

He had to show you the different stages of Anakin's life. He was a nice, polite, and talented little boy in Ep.1 (the podracing was there to show off Anakin's skill, and as eye candy.)
By Ep. 2, you see young adult Anakin, whiney, a bit. But he's whiney because he feels he's being held back by Obi-Wan. He knows he supposed to be the Chosen One, and he's extremely impatient. Acting like a typical teenager if you ask me...
Intead of showing things that might confuse people--the Jedi being hunted by Vader, etc. Lucas chose to start at the beginning of the Star Wars saga--with the introduction of Anakin Skywalker--the antagonist of the Original Trilogy. He wanted to show how Anakin went from that nice little kid to the cold, heartless Dark Side Terminator.
Believe it or not, as annoying as Jar Jar is, he was actually essential. Remeber when Padme was absent from the Senate in Ep. 2? She appointed Jar Jar to represent Naboo. Well, Jar Jar is weak minded, and Palpatine knew that, so he influenced Jar Jar to vote for granting him emergency powers to fight the Separatists and eventually start the Clone Wars.
Everything and everyone has a place in the SW universe. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[bam wannabe]

phazeshifter... THANK YOU!

about time someone clears this up for everyone else.
u are now my hero.

[BigEvil]

There were a few scenes that were deleted that could explain some of the c3po mind erasing thing. In the scene when Yoda and Obiwan decide to split the twins up, i read dialog that was omitted that when the question about the droids was brought up, it was determined that r2 could be trusted and 3po couldnt. Something like that.


There was also a scene with Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Padme that was cut that had them talking about the formation of the rebellion. They axed this scene but kept the whole elevator sequence in. That I dont understand.

I think that this movie could have easily been 4 hrs and still not long enough. As far as Anakins "quick" jump to the dark side, dont forget, he's been under Palpatines influence since he was 10. He had also already let the dark side influence his actions previously.

just my $.02

[Vex]

There were a few scenes that were deleted that could explain some of the c3po mind erasing thing. In the scene when Yoda and Obiwan decide to split the twins up, i read dialog that was omitted that when the question about the droids was brought up, it was determined that r2 could be trusted and 3po couldnt. Something like that.


There was also a scene with Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, and Padme that was cut that had them talking about the formation of the rebellion. They axed this scene but kept the whole elevator sequence in. That I dont understand.

I think that this movie could have easily been 4 hrs and still not long enough. As far as Anakins "quick" jump to the dark side, dont forget, he's been under Palpatines influence since he was 10. He had also already let the dark side influence his actions previously.

just my $.02

You are correct. There were scenes that should not have been cut, but I think that the discussion of the formation of the rebellion was a good one to delete--it was still too early in the story for the formation to really be feasable. They (senators, etc.) don't really know how Palpatine is going to rule. I think it takes a few years to get a Rebellion formed. They also cut the scene where Yoda speaks with Qui-Gon. Supposedly, we only hear Qui-Gon and not see him. Before he died, Qui-Gon only learned how to retain his consciousness in the Force and not his physical identity (spirit). He figures it out over time and passes this info on to Yoda, yada, yada, yada...
ROTS could easily have been 4 hours long and it still would have left some things up in the air. It did a great job of tying up some loose ends from Ep. 4 though, and for that, I give Lucas a lot of credit.
As far as C-3P0, someone else in the thread mentioned that it probably wasn't a good idea to let a chatterbox protocol droid know about such goings on, with the senators, Jedi, etc.

[Vex]

phazeshifter... THANK YOU!

about time someone clears this up for everyone else.
u are now my hero.

Thank you, thank you! Don't applaud, just send money!

[Blennidae]

3. Yoda knowing Chewie: What's wrong that? Wookiees live for over 200 years, and Yoda is 800, so where's the problem? It's not like Chewie had a huge role in the movie, or a very defining one for that matter. Yoda mentioned that he had a good relationship with the Wookiees, that's why he went to Kashyyyk. Chewie could have been a high-ranking warrior and that's why he was interacting with Yoda. Yoda went into seclusion, so Chewie could easily have forgotten about him. Plus, Chewie was in the movie for nostagia. It was nice to see an original character that every Star Wars fan should be familiar with. Plus, his involvement in the story is plausible, due to the fact that a campaign of the War was fought on Kashyyyk.

I don't want to address every point, as I agree on some of them, but I'll try to explain what "I" think is wrong with the Chewie/Yoda scene.

Sure both have long lifespans, both are on the planet for a reason. Where I think the problem lies is, its a planet full of wookies. Why have so many main characters know each other? Its a BIG galaxy. It makes it hard to believe that the wookie Yoda knows is going to end up working with a smuggler who hangs out on Tattooine, who happens to get picked to fly an old jedi and the son of the guy who helps bring down the republic. This particular son is now in possession of the droid dad built.

Does that make sense? Like I mentioned, having Chewie make a cameo appearance would have made me happier. Like the shot of the YT-1300 class ship, we as fans know what it represents, but we don't need it to be so blatent.

[Thordic]

Blennidae -

The Force works in mysterious ways :) Chewie and Han may have been the only ones who could have saved Luke and helped him do what he did.

[Steelrat]

Okay, bear with me--long post ahead:
Here we go:
1. George Lucas wrote ALL of the Star Wars movies at the SAME TIME during the early '70s. He wrote them not as individual episodes, but as one long "Space Opera". If you think I'm wrong, do your research and prove me wrong! He then broke them down into 9 episodes and then re-re-vamped them to 6. (Sorry folks, but by the time he made ANH, he never intended on filming 9 episodes...) Also, don't you think it makes almost no sense that you're just "thrown" into a movie and don't know anything about the characters? Remember the mention of the Clone Wars in ANH? There were a lot of questions as to what the hell happened before ANH that leads up to all of the fighting, the Empire, who exactly were the Jedi Knights, and why Luke was so special. Also, A New Hope implies that there was hope previously--so what happened?
Lucas had an imposible time finding a studio to release Ep. 4: A New Hope (so named not because it was the fourth time he pitched it, but because it was that chapter in his saga--sorry oldsoldier, but that's a fact. ) Finally, and exec at Fox greenlighted him and he began production. Because Star Wars was such a huge hit (at the time it was the highest grossing movie ever!) that when it came time to film The Empire Strikes Back, Lucas took out a loan from a bank to finance the movie so that he could have total control and the rights to his movies. He bankrolled Jedi himself. He didn't want the studios to have the rights to his projects; his life.
This is all stuff that's on the bonus disc with the Original Trilogy DVDs--come on, people!!

2. C-3P0 and R2-D2 knowing each other: They are together in ANH, right? At the end of Ep. 3, Bail Organa orders Capt. Antilles (not Wedge--wouldn't have been born yet, or else be very young) to wipe 3P0's mind--thus, he doesn't remember anything prior to that (Anakin building him, relationship with Padme, etc.)--there's his excuse for not putting 2 and 2 together with Luke Skywalker's name sounding familiar.
R2-D2 pretty much belonged to Anakin during Episodes 1, 2 and 3, not Obi-Wan. R2 would not know that Anakin became Vader--how would he?
In ANH, Leia programs the droid with a message for Obi-Wan Kenobi, whom she knows about because of her father, whom he "served" in the Clone Wars. So they had to show Bail Organa in Episodes 2 and 3 for continuity. Now, R2 would know that he's supposed to find Obi-Wan, and could possibly know who he is, and give him a message. Obi-Wan on the other hand wouldn't necessarily remember one droid, from 20 years earlier, especially if he didn't interact with it a whole lot. Since it's 20 years later, there's also the possibility that R2's memory has also been wiped--it could happen.

3. Yoda knowing Chewie: What's wrong that? Wookiees live for over 200 years, and Yoda is 800, so where's the problem? It's not like Chewie had a huge role in the movie, or a very defining one for that matter. Yoda mentioned that he had a good relationship with the Wookiees, that's why he went to Kashyyyk. Chewie could have been a high-ranking warrior and that's why he was interacting with Yoda. Yoda went into seclusion, so Chewie could easily have forgotten about him. Plus, Chewie was in the movie for nostagia. It was nice to see an original character that every Star Wars fan should be familiar with. Plus, his involvement in the story is plausible, due to the fact that a campaign of the War was fought on Kashyyyk.

3. Yoda's fighting skills: The dude is an 800 year old Jedi--don't you think that his skills should surpass most? He's never dealt with a Sith Lord until Count Dooku (because they were "extinct" for over a 1,000 years.) And Dooku was not even close to the level of Sidious, so he gave Yoda a good run for his money in a battle of Force knowledge/manipulation. Plus, Yoda's a little old dude, he can only withstand so much...

4. Anakin vs. Mace: Anakin didn't kill Mace--I thought that was pretty obvious. He stopped Windu from killing Palpatine, albeit by slicing off his saber hand, thus allowing Palpatine to take advantage and fry him with Force lightning. Anakin was already confused by Palps. He was already being teased and baited with great power that could save Padme from death. If Palps were to die, then he would lose Padme. After Mace took a dive from umpteen stories up, Anakin couldn't believe what had just happened, so he was even more confused and therefore easily swayable. Palpatine had already earned his trust in the previous movie and they had a close relationship in this one. Anakin was hurt to find out that his mentor was the Sith Lord, but he was intrigued by the possibilty of having the power to save his wife. Palpatine played on Anakin's heart strings until they snapped. Once Anakin pledged himself to the Dark Side, for the purpose to save Padme, Palpatine had complete control over him. Anakin finally gave in to anger and fear.

5. Anakin and the Jedi Temple: The younglings weren't the only ones killed by Anakin. They were just the only ones "shown" so that we would get the feeling of how evil Anakin was to become. This was the most disturbing scene and I felt very sad during that one. Anakin was led to believe that the Jedi were his true enemies and that they needed to be dealt with. So of course he's got to kill the children, so that they don't grow to become Jedi and pose a threat. Besides, killing children is nothing new to him, he already slaughtered the Tusken Raider kids in Episode 2--remember? I actually was kind of hoping that they would show Anakin kill some Jedi--I was a little disappointed.

6. Anakin and Palpatine: Anakin is confused and lost. Palpatine knows this, knows his power potential, knows his loss, and plays on that. Nothing new here. I actually thought that Palpatine's revelation to Anakin about being a Sith Lord was flawlessly smooth, along with Ankakin's transition to the Darkside. Hurried? Maybe; but there was only 2 1/2 hours, so...

Overall. I felt this movie did a lot to tie up a lot of loose ends and open questions. They explain that Qui-Gon figured out how to live on in the Force and taught Yoda, who teaches Obi-Wan. They show how Vader got into the suit. They show that 3-P0's mind was ordered wiped. Bail Organa took Leia to Aleraan. Obi-Wan gave Luke to Beru and Owen on Tatooine.
In my opinion, mine only--I flame no one--I felt this was an excellent movie and an appropriate ending to a great story.

1. I never argued this point, and what you are saying makes sense. The creator of Babylon 5 did the same thing with that series. I know that Lucas certainly modified the script, and did not just drag it out of the vault, dust it off, and hand it out to the actors.

2. Not buying it. Millions and millions of droids, and the two droids in Ep1-3 happen to be the same two droids from Ep 4-6? I think that Lucas intentionally added in characters from 4-6 in a blatant attempt to generate fan interest "Come and see Chewbacca!" However, in doing so he sacrificed plausibility. And including them did nothing to advance the movie, other than relying upon the same ol' C3P0 "We're doomed!" humor as a crutch. Like Blennidae said, it could have been done in a more subtle manner, such as having R2 brifely featured in a scene. I'm also not buying that R2 wouldn't have filled everyone in during Ep 4-6. He was there for every battle and showdown, Im sure he knew what was going on with Anakin and Vader.

3. See #2 and Blennidae's comments. "Miss you much I will, Chewbacca." Too much for me.

4. Yoda's mighting skills. Its just me, but I would have preferred to see the old master tossing stuff around with his mental abilities rather than doing the ninja lightsaber moves. I did enjoy seeing him whack the 2 imperial guards when he went to see palpatine, but that was using the ol' mental powers. The lightsaber jumping just seemed corny to me, like something that was there to appeal to little kids.

5. Anakin and Mace. Lets not split hairs. When Anakin chopped off Mace's arm, I'm sure he wouldn't be thinking that he, Mace, and Palpatine would be having a nice sit down chat afterwards. But thats not really important. Whats important was that Anakin was confused by his dreams and Palpatine's promises. So during that confusion, he kills Mace. Fine. But after doing so, he just completely gives up on 20 years of Jedi training and becomes Darth Vader, just like that. There was about 10 seconds of though, and then hes off to chop up Jedi kids. Then afterwards, he rushes home to give Padme a hug? I understand that there were time constaints and all, but thats just not believable behavior. I think it would have been better if, as someone suggested, Anakin were persuaded to let some Troopers into the Temple to "arrest" the Jedi. Then, after the troopers slaughtered the Jedi, it would have created even more anguish for Anakin, pushing him more towards the Dark Side.

And killing the raider kids is light years from killing Jedi Kids he has known for years.

6. I don't buy giving Lucas a pass to rush the storyline because of time constraints. Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

There were some very well done things in the movie, such as the betrayel of the Jedi, I.E. Order 66 or whatever. Also, the ending, showing where Luke and Leia ended up, was also well done. I just can't overlook the bad. Starship Troopers at least had an excuse, as they had a limited budget. What was Lucas's excuse?

[BigEvil]

Steelrat,

I think everyone is missing something here. After Anikin housed Mace to save the Chancellor, Palpatine put it to him: (paraphrase) "What do you think the Jedi will do with us?"

So basically, once Anikin turned on Mace, it was all or nothing at that point. I think it was meant to be a "them or me" thing.

[Hexis]

After seeing 3 I now get a lot more out of 1 and 2. The entire point of 1 and 2 was to setup the fall, to give Anakin real motivation to go to the dark side.

Ep 1, he has to leave mom, that's a tough deal for a small child.
Ep 2, he has nightmares and finds out that they are real, and had he acted earlier, he may have saved mom. Then he fins a honey and shacks up. This both gives him somone that he cares about quite deeply, and starts to alienate him from the jedi.
Ep 3, The nightmares start again, this time he's worried abot his honey. Living for a few years with a wife that he can not admit to has also alienated him more. Palpy manipulates this masterfully to create an "Anakin vs the Jedi" situation, and gives him hope of saving his honey. That's pretty powerful for him.

I think the motivation was failry well established.

[Lohman446]

I thought they did a good job of explaining Anakins turn.

Mace had told him repeatedly that he did not trust him, and Anakin felt betrayed by the Jedi council when they refused to make him a "master" and gave him a seat on the council. He felt further betrayed when the asked him to spy on Palpatine (sp) but refused to ask officially. That action, and the secrecy was against the "jedi" code. Add to it Palpatine making it seem that the Jedi were trying to take power for themselves, and that he was just trying to restore "peace". Jedi can read peoples feelings, except for those powerful - certainly it must be confusing to them when they cannot read someone's feeling - how hard would it be for them to "see" a lie. Add this to Mace's desire to kill Palpatine rather than arrest him because he was "too powerful" and it surely could have seemed to Anakin that Palpatine was "right" and that the jedi were trying to take over. That and there was animosity with Mace to begin with - Anakin may not have attacked say yoda, or OB1 in that case but here Mace was trying to kill Palpatine when he was the most powerful there and Mace and Anakin did not like each other to begin with. I can see where it was possible for him to "defend" Palpatine. Once that step was made it would ahve been easy for him to beleive that the jedi in the temple were turned. Remember hsi words that he hoped OB1 served the empire and not the Jedi order when asked by Padme... it was not totally sudden.

[dre1919]

"Just because you did it first doesn't mean you did it better."

That's pretty much the way I feel about Star Wars. George Lucas made a wonderful and important addition to the Pop Culture Universe, but they aren't THAT great of films. They have incredible imagination and effects, yes, but aside from the first three movies (and Ewan McGregor), they don't have that good of acting. In addition to that, the good actors they do have (like Samuel L. Jackson), they hogtie with choppy and wooden script writing. This is all in addition to the fact that Lucas is lost on how to write a love scene. They are just movies, and people take them way too seriously. However, with that said, I am a very casual fan of the franchise and here are my thoughts on Episode III: Revenge of More Marketing.

I liked this movie more than the other films actually, mainly because it was more violent and had darker undertones. However, there were things I did not like about it: As Steelrat pointed out, it was just too TIDY. Too many characters knew too many other characters for any believeability to set in...it was just "Hey, this is the last prequel so we need to get all these guys in somewhere". I thought it was somewhat cowardly how Jar Jar, although I found him annoying too, was done away with completely after Ep.1. Nobody liked him? Too bad, he's part of the story. Just because there was media backlash he gets written out.

Anyway, my biggest issue with this film was Anakin himself. They spend all this time telling you how much of a powerful Jedi he is, even more so that Yoda, and yet he can't beat Obi Wan at the end? Sure, his ego and anger unbalanced him, but as a Sith they are supposed to make him stronger. If he's already the "chosen one", more powerful than even Yoda, and then made EVEN MORE powerful by his anger and ego as a Sith, then how does he lose to anybody? You would think threachery would be the only way to do someone like him in. Fighting one Jedi, even a really good one in Obi Wan, should be fairly easy for one of only two Siths...especially the almighty Anakin. Instead, he loses three limbs in one shot? No way. Obi Wan was like "I have the higher ground, it's over!" Ok, I've seen some fights between Jedi, in this film even, where they're fighting over all sorts of obsticles and Obi's standing on a little hill and thinks he's won his fight with Anakin? How? Not to mention, two more points on this fight: One, Anakin stright up drops Count Dooku, a better swordfighter at the time than Obi AND Anakin by himself, and he still can't beat Obi? I doubt it. Two, how come neither him or Obi used the "Force Push" to knock one or the other into the lava? They show they fighting like that all the time, and Anakin, all powerful, wouldn't think to force push Obi down before leaping over him? There were too many discrepencies to the way they fight. Count Dooku used the force push in his battles, so did Anakin when killing the seperatists (closing the doors). Where was his all mighty mastery of the Force against Obi Wan?

I agree, I think they sped up his decent to the dark side a bit. I can completely understand the angle they took, and the reasoning why he would join though. That was well done in my opinion. He loved his wife above all else, so whatever had to be done to save her was not out of the question. Also, he never really liked the Jedi or felt like he belonged, so what's it to him to kill some if he can gain personally from it? He's already shown he can kill in revenge, so why not cold blood, and for a good purpose? I really liked the cloaked, hooded, evil Anakin much better than the half robotic Darth Vader (by the way, if I joined the Sith I'd want a better name than "Vader"). The others get Sideous, Plagus, Tyrannous and Maul and he gets Vader? I would have told Palpatine "Thanks for making me sound like a car from the 70's."

These are pretty good films for their imagination, imagery, and place in Pop Culture but they are just that...movies. They aren't a happening, or a cult like experience. I think people should take them for what they are and be entertained, making their own critique like they would any other film.

[bleachit]

Anyway, my biggest issue with this film was Anakin himself. They spend all this time telling you how much of a powerful Jedi he is, even more so that Yoda, and yet he can't beat Obi Wan at the end? Sure, his ego and anger unbalanced him, but as a Sith they are supposed to make him stronger. If he's already the "chosen one", more powerful than even Yoda, and then made EVEN MORE powerful by his anger and ego as a Sith, then how does he lose to anybody? You would think threachery would be the only way to do someone like him in. Fighting one Jedi, even a really good one in Obi Wan, should be fairly easy for one of only two Siths...especially the almighty Anakin. Instead, he loses three limbs in one shot? No way. Obi Wan was like "I have the higher ground, it's over!" Ok, I've seen some fights between Jedi, in this film even, where they're fighting over all sorts of obsticles and Obi's standing on a little hill and thinks he's won his fight with Anakin? How? Not to mention, two more points on this fight: One, Anakin stright up drops Count Dooku, a better swordfighter at the time than Obi AND Anakin by himself, and he still can't beat Obi? I doubt it. Two, how come neither him or Obi used the "Force Push" to knock one or the other into the lava? They show they fighting like that all the time, and Anakin, all powerful, wouldn't think to force push Obi down before leaping over him? There were too many discrepencies to the way they fight. Count Dooku used the force push in his battles, so did Anakin when killing the seperatists (closing the doors). Where was his all mighty mastery of the Force against Obi Wan?

Anakin is very unstable emotionally and very confused mentally... Obi Wan is very level headed. that alone is enough to win a fight. Obi Wan taught Anakin, he has been with him for years. No one would know Anakin better than Obi Wan. Obi Wan has become a very powerful Jedi himself and is definately in control of himself much more so than Anakin. Also he takes a stab at Anakin's pride and arrogance when he claims he has won the battle. Anakin decides to show off, rather foolishly and Obi Wan, level headed, takes advantage.

as far as force pushing... they tried that, and both ended up in a wall.

[gamarada717]

4. Yoda's mighting skills. Its just me, but I would have preferred to see the old master tossing stuff around with his mental abilities rather than doing the ninja lightsaber moves. I did enjoy seeing him whack the 2 imperial guards when he went to see palpatine, but that was using the ol' mental powers. The lightsaber jumping just seemed corny to me, like something that was there to appeal to little kids.

I might agree with you on that one...I mean, in Episode 2, when Yoda busted out the light saber, everbody cheered. It was cool to see the little guy who walks with a cane flying through the air...but, they did the same thing for Episode 3. I too would have liked to see some more mental throwing of things. But, there is a pretty logical reason for that. The only things he had to throw were important pieces of the Senate room, and he probably didn't think that destroying things was the best way to kill Sidious.

[Steelrat]

I might agree with you on that one...I mean, in Episode 2, when Yoda busted out the light saber, everbody cheered. It was cool to see the little guy who walks with a cane flying through the air...but, they did the same thing for Episode 3. I too would have liked to see some more mental throwing of things. But, there is a pretty logical reason for that. The only things he had to throw were important pieces of the Senate room, and he probably didn't think that destroying things was the best way to kill Sidious.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think Yoda would have cared about breaking a marble bust or two when taking Sidious down

A good friend, who is also a huge Star Wars fan, has told me that the "book lore" indicated that Jedi masters were all about the mental abilities, and considered using lightsabers to be crude and childish. That made sense to me too. Frankly, when I saw Yoda bust out the light saber in Ep. 2, I audibly groaned.