stopblock idea

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

you're right

Oh ok, I think I see what you're saying, so that maybe an angled pin would be how to get a short pull. You're right my idea could possibly result in a longer, lighter pull. Oops, but I think we do have the right idea. Your #2 and #3 could definitely do what we're looking to do, unless the direction the trigger is being pulled and the angle the pin is sloped at plays a role. I don't know, it's late and the brain is shutting down for the night. But if the trigger motion is directly back but the pin is being pushed at a slant wouldn't that also require a longer pull for the same motion? Maybe not, I'm thinking that could work. Would make installation easier too, no cutting into the trigger frame body. I need a new screw anyways, maybe I need to order a new sear and do some playing.

[classicmagplayer]

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

AGD

You reading this employees of AGD? classicmagplayer is legit (I hope, who knows online but so far I believe it). Yeah, I was thinking that if a little extension came off the back of the trigger and was slightly angled too, the extension would push against the pin in the same fashion the trigger does now allowing the same motion to push the same distance, but since the sear connection is much closer to the sear's pivot, it would result in the sickly short pull and only minimal weight increase.

classicmagplayer, any chance you would be able to do the math determining exactly how much change this could have, for example to drop the pull distance down to half presumably by making the sear connection spot half the distance to the sear axis, and in doing so what additional force would be required to activate the sear properly without other issues resulting? The exact AGD specs would be tough but if you could do something close to what I did earlier, that would be great. We definitely want to find the spot where we get the most beneficial reduce in pull while still keeping most of the lightness. By how the sear moves, wouldn't we want it to be 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down the sear, so in other words 1/4 to 1/2 the distance closer to the sear axis? I think if we only crept it up a little (1/10) the amount shortened wouldn't be worth the added weight but on the other hand if the pin was connected right by the axis the pull weight would make the almost nonexistent pull length pointless. Or would it?

We're nearing 1000 views, people are interested

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

also...

Also, two additional questions:

If a sloped angle was used for the sear on the trigger could Emags and Xmags be adjusted to be able to fire at such an angle? I haven't spent much time looking at the E-frames for mags so I don't know if this could work for them, but I could see where the solenoid might be set for a straight horizontal sear position. Not sure, EMag techs, please explain! Thanks!

Also, if it COULD, wouldn't this help address the issue of the dwell not charging enough or whatever the ULE trigger mod was doing to electrics that AGD is going to need to adjust a little? I remember reading about that and I think the lightness was the issue.

[classicmagplayer]

just fired the ule trigger today guess whos going to buy an x valve tomorrow and the wait for the ULE will begin.

After firing it I think a shorter pull would help a ton with the "chuffing" even if the trigger was a little stiffer. The trigger is freakin light and you can still feel it kick. I only got to play for like l min, but it does chuff unless your paying attention to releasing the trigger. I'm sure after playing with it for a couple games it would be easy to shoot. The only problem is that the trigger is light enough you dont realize your "riding" the trigger and short stroking it.

I'm going to ask tomorrow if a shorter spring would have any effect on the short stroking. The with the shorter spring it would take less pressure to get the valve to move the whole way forward and release a larger amount of air. This might stiffen up the pull more though cause the spring would be pushing less on the bolt. I really doubt that made sence.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

sweet

Sounds sweet classicmagplayer, while you're asking them questions don't forget to ask about that whole idea we were bouncing around about raising the point where the sear pin connects with the sear so that it goes at a more upward angle, thereby shortening the pull distance but adding some weight to the pull. If this works it could really reduce chuffing and if the trigger is so light it shouldn't have too much effect on the pull weight needed. If the counter argument is regarding how the trigger will actually push the rod if the trigger is moving horizontally and the rod will need to be pushed at a 45 degree angle, I know what it needs. Imagine the part of metal that sits just above the sear now extended down so there is a flat surface at a 45 degreee angle to the trigger so that it would sit flat with the new on-off pin angle like the trigger does now with the current sear pin that is horizontal. So this new surface would be perpendicular to the new sear pin and move at a 1:1 ratio with the trigger as it does now, allowing the reduction in pull distance with no loss of effectiveness due to the angle of the sear and trigger being changed. This surface would need to be low, about where the pin makes contact in mags right now, to take advantage of a shorter distance. Following me??

[classicmagplayer]

yeah, you talking about angling the stright part of the sear back so its still perpendicular to the trigger rod. That would be great, but you would also need a longer trigger rod that probably out of the adjustment range. AGD could sell a new sear/trigger rod that would make the pull shorter but still lighter than the old pull. The only real problem i can see is with the emag/xmag where the solinoid arm/plunger thing goes up through the clevis to attach to the sear... at least thats what i can see from pics. If the normal trigger rod is moved up and back(moved back to fix the angle problem) the hole in the clevis might not be long enough for the solnoid to fit through.

I think there might need to be a "step" in the trigger to hold the rod in place...because if its angled down toward the trigger it might bind up behind the trigger. When i get my x valve i might try it.

sorry for the bad grammer and spelling, i dont have a spell checker and i'm too lazy to look stuff up.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

haha

great minds think alike... unfortunately they don't communicate well...

What I initially meant was exactly what you countered with

The sear itself can stay the exact same shape and location it is now. The rod can even stay the same style but the pin would be hanging at a 30-45 degree slope so it's connecting higher on the sear and utilizing the shorter but heavier pull. Whether or not the solenoid and all that can still be hooked up now that the pin angles differently is another issue entirely, but for us with manual mags, I am not worrying about that just yet. Do you think anything in the grip for Emags would interfere with theis new angle or that the plunger won't be able to connect?

The ledge/step/point that the sear contacts would be on the trigger. Thats what I meant. My whole intent of mentioning that was the binding issue, you would need the ledge on the trigger, angled so it's pushing the pin straight at the sear and the pin won't get pushed in the wrong direction. Yes the sear rod length would need to be altered but hey, thats progress. Would pushing the sear at a more upward angle that a flat angle cause issues? I would think it would be easier to release the bolt doing that.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

up

Up, and since this thing's gotten over a thousand views I know more than just classicmagplayer and myself are viewing it, if you like the idea, give your opinion about whether this idea sounds good, if you'd want a shorter pull with just a little loss in lightness, and if you think it could work. Especially AGD techs and people who really know the marker, give your two cents to this, the whole intent is for this to help everyone!

[afrankart]

Yeah, I can't help but check this thread out every time someone posts, but I can't help but wait for feedback and info from someone who has shot this trigger and possibly has a beta version to tell us about.

[classicmagplayer]

I shot it

Picked up the mag on the table thinking "hey its an rt with an x-valve" and was like woah...it felt like the diadem i was just shooting. Its real light, easily walkable. The only problem I can see is the chuffing. I have to admit switching from the diadem to the mag was weird. With the e-guns it doesnt matter if you get out of rythm, but with the ule trigger it will sputter. There were a couple people there that couldnt shoot the thing at all and every shot was a sputter or chuff.

The reason it so easy to short stroke it is that the on/off closes as soo as you touch the trigger. So if your walking it and dont fully release with one finger before the other hits your short stroking. I tried fanning and didnt have a single chuff, but when walking every once in awhile you could here a little sputter.

And you can still feel the RT effect...

hopefully i'll be going again tomorrow to play with it some more...i think i spent more time playing with the guns than i did watching the games. THere have got to be more people on here that went to the IAO and have shot the trigger.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

1200

Almost 1200 views and climbing, you people definitely see potential in this. classicmagplayer has given some great ideas and amendments to mine to the point where we have the basic concept mapped out pretty solidly. One issue that may arise is the trigger rod: By changing where the rod is located and which direction it is being pushed, the length may need to be adjusted. How is the best way for the right length to be selected? Is it just so that at rest the rod has that miniscule distance between it and the trigger? What are the risks of the distance being slightly off in either direction?

Here's another question for the general population: what is the current distance the trigger on an Intelliframe has to be pulled to shoot effectively in rapid fire, and if this idea works how short would you want it to get to benefit you in preventing chuffs and allowing walking, knowing it will add extra weight to the pull? It seems one issue is almost how light the trigger really is and that it's so light you don't know if you released it enough. Would you prefer a little more weight is added so you can tell that it has reset but at the same time reducing the distance it needs to reset?

We will all see how the ULE is when it comes out, and I definitely can't wait for the feedback from the current users regarding how it is and how this idea could work then. But speculate people, make educated guesses, or just express your opinion about if you would even want this functionality if it can work effectively in this thread.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

another

Another idea to add to this... I was just playing with the sear, using my thumb and index finger and the axis and playing with the angels that the pin can be pushed at. One thing I noticed with a 45 degree angle is that it's tougher to push due to where the axis is. Could the part that hangs down be moved a little further back? What effect would this have on how it fired? The Emag plunger might need to be adjusted (or the end can have an L shape, with two seperate holes in the sear for the plunger and the sear rod). Ideas?

[afrankart]

Well since you shot it classicmagplayer, if you can, could you tell me the approx. pull weight/reactivity push? I am curious just how reactive it is, and if the reactivity is adjustable in any way. By the way, did you notice if it had a preset or an adjustable tank?

[classicmagplayer]

Re: 1200

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
If this were a mod we did with our own sears because AGD chooses not to adopt this idea we're working on here, how is the best way for the right length to be selected? Is it just so that at rest the rod has that miniscule distance between it and the trigger? What are the risks of the distance being slightly off in either direction?

Its easy to adjust...just have enough space between the trigger and the rod for light to pass through. And the trigger to be able to move foward and back a little. The risks are:
if the trigger rod is hitting the trigger all the time, the on/off assembly will not fully open, thereby short stroking the trigger by itself
If there is too big of a gap you might not be able to pull the trigger far enough to release the bolt, so you couldnt shoot.
Its really easy to adjust to the proper length, it just takes a couple minute of disassembling the maker and putting it back together a couple times.

Another idea to add to this... I was just playing with the sear, using my thumb and index finger and the axis and playing with the angels that the pin can be pushed at. One thing I noticed with a 45 degree angle is that it's tougher to push due to where the axis is. Could the part that hangs down be moved a little further back? What effect would this have on how it fired? The Emag plunger might need to be adjusted (or the end can have an L shape, with two seperate holes in the sear for the plunger and the sear rod). Ideas?

Thats exactly what i was trying to say be4. If you move the stright part(part that hangs down) back to correct for the angle change created by moving the trigger rod up on the sear. The only problem with this is you would need a whole new trigger rod, because, with the hanging part of the sear moved back, the rod would be too short to reach, even if it was adjusted out the whole way.

Well since you shot it classicmagplayer, if you can, could you tell me the approx. pull weight/reactivity push? I am curious just how reactive it is, and if the reactivity is adjustable in any way. By the way, did you notice if it had a preset or an adjustable tank?

It had an flatline tank on it, but i didn't check the output pressure, all I looked at was if there was air in the tank. As for the approx pull and length...its the same length as stock, just a ton lighter. It was probably under a pound seeing that stock pull is 3 pounds right? and the reactiveness was still there, but its not enough to push your finger back to sweat spot, at least I dont think there was enough.