stopblock idea

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

point of pivot

OK, so if the part that hangs down got moved back it might require a longer pin to be made. I am definitely playing with this when I get my ULE trigger! It's minor parts to be made, basically a new shape to the current sear. But the benefits could be phenomenal

[GhillieGuy]

pic i got from warpig..

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

on/off

Yeah, I can't wait to see this thing in full production. However I am still confused about what precisely makes this thing drop 2/3 of the trigger pull weight. A step by step explanation of how it works and where it is different from the traditional on/off would be nice.
I can see the differences in that diagram but it'll probably make way more sense when a mod can explain.

Well too nice a day to keep typing, but let's here some more thoughts on our super-short, super-light trigger idea. I'm trying this trigger-shortening idea no matter what when I get this thing but having some more feedback, especially from the folks at AGD, would be nice to help plan this out. This thread should be a classic

[classicmagplayer]

alright heres a simple explanation:

Pretend your standing under a small waterfall that is wide...the water is hitting you. You can feel the weight of the water pushing down on you but its not bad. Now hold up a piece of plywood and try and stand under the waterfall. There is now a ton of pressure pushing down on the surface of the board which in turn is pushing on you.

in this analogy the new ule on off pin is you, and the old on off pin is you with the piece of plywood. the water fall is the pressure inside the valve. This just shows that a larger surface area with the same pressure produces more force.

since air pressure pushes in all directions, it doesnt matter what shape the on/off pin is...the top of the pin could be huge and the trigger pull would be the same. This is because the pressure is surrounding the top and pushing on all sides. The only place that matters for the trigger pull is the area inside the micro o-ring. Making this piece smaller with lighten the trigger pull.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

got it

OK, I got it....so what would the shims be needed for then if it's all reliant on the pin being thin? I know, I'm a pain.

Still not many other responses on this one guys, if you like the idea of a shorter pull at little sacrifice in how light the pull is, speak up. AGD doesn't care if just classicmagplayer and myself want to talk about this and hypothesize about it (unless we do it and it works, then I think we'll have their attention) but if enough people voice interest AGD themselves might begin to investigate a new sear shape that would allow the angled pin and a new trigger with the 45 degree ledge for the pin to sit on or be clipped to so that the sear doesn't slip and fall into the trigger frame and also pushes at the needed 30 or 45 degree slope that will shorten the pull. Hey, if pivot point on the sear is moved forward or the part that extends down is moved back, it may not even make the trigger pull heavier. I don't know, and we won't till it's tried. So AGD... any hopes of looking into if a modified sear and trigger could do this and not have negative effects on the mags performance or the life of its parts?

[SIGSays]

Re: on/off

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Yeah, I'm 95% sure that picture Sigsays added is not what it really looks like. If you take a peek at the Warpig Diagram you'll notice the orings sealing the top of the on/off is indented into the brass part, so it would be different from the pic where the oring sits on top.

So sidenote I was just thinking of (I do not know the physics principles Tom is using for the trigger exactly, but if the ULE trigger on/off pin top was larger than it is now would that result in a lighter pull (12oz?) but the reason it is not being done is because it would be so light chuffs would be nonstop? If so could the gear idea that shortens the pull/increases the pull weight (2mm X 22.5 oz) be combined with a larger on/off top to bring it down to either 3mm X 12oz or 2mm X 18oz? Basically same weight pull as the ULE now but 33% pull distance reduction without chuff risks. If I am wrong, someone pleae explain what would actually change the force required to push the on/off so that it seals the airflow inside the Mag.

Come on guys, TheJester is once again coming up with some good points (always does, unfortunately he proves me wrong sometimes, lol) but would my idea of a rail with the 2nd gear attached, that gear pushing the sear, and a small gear around the trigger pin to pull the bigger gear work? A pretty thick pair of gears could be used to offset the stress of the trigger return that could result in wear.

IT... COULD... WORK! (Young Frankenstein quote)

sorry about that... jterraw or something said that was.. and he put a pic of it in a threa... so i just assumed it was a ult

[845]

I have one but I have not gotten to shoot it with paint yet so I wont post my opinion until I do.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

ule

Thats cool you got one though, I'm wondering when batch #2 is coming out but if the current release is acting like a beta test and someone picks up on a design flaw at least it can be fixed before I get mine. Fast is nice, but I can wait for the right reasons.

No prob Sigsays, so much about this thing is speculation right now. Whoever gave the pic to you is a jerk or an idiot, depending on if he knew it was the ULE or not. But that pic definitely came from the AGD store and was most likely labeled RT on/off or something similar where they got it. Please by all means contribute your opinion on if you want the shorter pull/slightly heavier trigger idea. I've been dying to hear others' thoughts. They can't ignore us forever!

So I was thinking about it and I think the reason the part of the sear that extends down is in front of the pivot point is because thats required for the pin to effectively move at a horizontal angle. So if this idea were to work this part that extends down would need to be almost or even completely under the pivot point for the sear. The question is with the change in pivot location would this alter the pull distance required?

So here's the changes so far to sum up:

Goal: Reduced trigger pull, 40-60% reduction, testing pending. Expected but acceptable side effect of increase weight of trigger pull of 30-50%, testing pending. With testing the optimal result is to shorten the pull by a larger percentage than the trigger pull weight is increased. Wouldn't 16oz 70% reduced trigger pull rip? Aiming for it

Idea: with the new ULE on/off, a new ULE sear and trigger should be next. The old sear was designed with a heavy pushback on the on/off in mind. AGD has done a great job and managed to solve that issue but with one side effect: risk of shortstrokes that would "chuff". But with the push against the on/off that causes the pull weight reduced, the leverage the sear is designed to give to push in the on/off pin is no longer needed. This allows us to change the functionality of the sear with great benefits in doing so.

The new sear: OK, imagine the current sear or look at one while reading this. The part that locks the bolt stays the same. So does the actual sear pivot point (the hole). And how the back part pushes the on/off pin. BUT lets look at that part of the sear that hangs down. It's a fulcrum, so by it being an inch right now (guessing an inch) the on/off pin connects to the end and has to push X mm's to fire the gun. But what if this part was half an inch? By moving the point of pressure 1/2 the distance to the center of the sear it will theoretically take 1/2 the distance to fire. so the trigger pull would be .5X instead of X but at the cost of the pull being heavier. So the idea is to find the right balance between pull and weight to minimize chuffing, allow easy walking, and not add too much weight back into the pull. Now, to really benefit from this, the angle the sear pin is pushed needs to be changed. So instead of a horizontal motion the pin needs to be pushed from its current location at a 30 degree angle upwards. This may add or remove some of the benefits of the shorter fulcrum, testing needs to be done for this. But this angle is needed to allow the shorter pull because if the location the pin is pushed at by the trigger, that would counteract the benefits or shortening the fulcrum. So also needed is for the fulcrum, the part of the sear that hangs down, to be moved back so that it is directly or only slightly in front of where the hole is in the sear. As long as no issues result in this, this should allow a smooth, short pull. Here is a pic of roughly what the new sear would look like, any designs thoughts, problems you think could result, reasons why are logic is off, please by all means respond with them.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by classicmagplayer
alright heres a simple explanation:

The only place that matters for the trigger pull is the area inside the micro o-ring. Making this piece smaller with lighten the trigger pull.

I don`t quite get it either. Think I`ve forgotten most of my university fluid dynamics courses.

What I can say with certainty is it`s not quite as simple as the analogy given.

After all, If you tried to support your piece of plywood with a broom stick, you`d stil ahve to hold up a ton of weight.

[SI|ENT|3O|3]

Quincy, would your ule sear work without the ule trigger upgrade? lmk.
-sebastian

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

got it

OK, go with the broomstick example. pretend the broomstick is the on-off... pushing it up into the water longwise wouldn't be that hard. Now try doing that with a baseball bat... pushing that up into the water would be harder because there is more surface area being pushed against. So you have to do more work. So thin pin, less surface area to be pushed against.

What I think I'm curious about is the shims.. I have no clue what they will do. Or if the smaller passage of air between the reg and the chamber that holds the air you use to shoot the paintball will affect max ROF.

Well hope the example helped and if anyone knows the functionality let us know, but people with ULE triggers, throw us some info guys, if you really don't have interest in seeing if this works, fine, but help a brother out!

Silent, great question. This sear idea would be exclusive to the ULE on/off because I think it would make a normal mag or Lvl 10 mag with no ULE have too heavy of a trigger pull, although I could see it working well on an RT Pro or XValved Mag if you got a strong trigger finger because it would still shorten it, reset quickly, and allow some sick ROF if you can handle a 3.5-4lb pull. But the idea is for it to work with the ULE on-off and take advantage of the new light pull. I just don't have a ULE on/off yet OR the machinery to modify a sear to test it out. I'm looking into both of those.

[afrankart]

My guess* is that the shims are used to lengthen the length of the on/off assembly, therefore making the pin "shorter" in comparison to the longer assembly. This might have the same effect of having a shorter on/off pin in a normal on/off assembly ginving you more reactivity to fight bolt stick. *I emphasize guess.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

shims

That could be the reason behind the shims, at this point it is all speculation. We shall see!

There are a tons of authorities here on AO who really know their stuff, especially about Mags and what has worked, can work, and about what effect changes such as the one I have spent so much time devising would have on Mags. I would be honored if they could contribute your knowledge to this and help me and the others posting on evaluating the current idea and address issues or offer your two cents on how it can be improved further. I'm shocked that such an idea as this has not received more responses from any other members on AO and especially shocked it has received none from the people who I view as some of the better techs and resources in the paintball community and definitely the elite of AO. Would changing the sear have a negative effect on the Mags performance or possibly cause damage I am not forseeing? Has such an idea been tried before by any of you or anyone you know? The whole reason I started this thread is to contribute to AO and help us advance the marker we all love and use (or at least own, lol). I truly would value your assistance and look forward to seeing posts from some of you. Thanks!

Other people on AO.... would you want this trigger mod or would you rather just stick with superlight and regular pull? Speak up!

[Meph]

There's only 1 thing bad about the ULE trigger.


I COULDN'T GET ONE! Lucky bastards signing up for your fancy schmancy tech class. Wish I read up on that class and known it was going to go through the ULE trigger as well. Just figured it'd been the same stuff I went through in Tennessee at PTI training. Guess not.

[SI|ENT|3O|3]

See i wouldn't really mind a hard pull if it's really short, i would prefer it. That way i can keep more pressure on it and it would be suuuuuuuuuuper snappy. I could test out your modified sear for you on a retro, i could pay for it...VERY INTERESTED i am.
-sebastian