stopblock idea

[edweird]

From AGD

it would DOUBLE the trigger force

Ding Ding we have a Winnah!

from the mouth of the man himself, Dont monkey with the sear :P

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

response

Thank you for responding Ed, I unfortunately find it difficult timewise and financially to attend tech classes, and you and Dayspring definitely know your stuff. I appreciate the help and I do agree this is not the optimal solution.

Tom, thank you also for responding, and for also actually acknowledging that what I was saying from the start was true. My whole idea has been based around the principle that the amount of work (forceXdistance) would always have to be the same regardless of the sear rod location on the tang so if the trigger pull got reduced by a third based on how far up on the sear the pin was moved, it would increase the pull weight by that much as well. But if you and most others feel that would make it too heavy to have a shorter distance be worth it, I definitely see that point and can understand it. I figured I could at the very least get the idea out and let it be evaluated in case it was possible and make it available to the experts in case they wanted to go through with it.

So this idea is probably worth avoiding and better alternatives for shorter pull might come up later. Oh well. Unless something comes to light I think this project will remain untested as I do not think the damage risk is worth it. But I offer it up as open source for anyone else to take up or follow through on. Thanks for the help, all of you who contributed. I do honestly appreciate it.

[edweird]

Not a prob man. But dont give up hope as I can see its not a dead issue as a whole. Once the ULTrigger gets tested fully by us beta people I think we can start looking at shorting the rest of the trigger pull. Thus negating the illusion the full swing of the RTP trigger gives to the uninformed.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

trigger

Edweird, I think one thing that raises hope is that my idea seems at least feasible in that I was right it could work but there would be an equal sacrifice in having the pull be heavy again while still having the benefit of a shorter pull which was what I was stating from the start. It is not modifying the part of the sear that needs to stay the same for the proper cycle of the gun, only the part that activates that. It seems Tom acknowledged it would do what I originally said it would. Would maybe a 20% pull decrease, 20% weight increase exchange prove useful? I guess it's opinion and people have different preferences about what works for them. It would keep the pull light (15oz X 1.2 = 18oz, which isn't bad) while shortening the pull perhaps enough to reduce the chuffing issue a little. I guess it's not really much of a benefit increase. I definitely agree though it could prove beneficial later on perhaps and that the ULE beta testing will be a big factor. I'd love to hear anything you wish to contribute about your beta testing regarding if this pull idea could end up being used. I still believe the sear is the next spot where performance increases could be found as it has not evolved with the other parts. But I also see how so much is involved and how redesigning it could be tough. But no one thought the Lvl 10 could have ever been created too, but AGD did it. If the not-to-be-mentioned court case with the not-to-be-mentioned company results in the age of semi-automatic mechanical markers to be reborn, AGD stands to be an industry leader hands down. And steady innovation like what we have seen the last two years is exactly what will keep them there.

I also am in the middle of thinking up a trigger stop idea that could save alot of damage to Mag trigger frames, sears, etc. I am finishing devising that idea first and definitely keeping an eye on what people are doing with stops on the ULE trigger before I release the idea to AO though. Any notes on how your stops do would be great (front, back, both, problems that could happen although I know the key ones), and especially info on how you tell where they should go and how you know exactly where to drill. Folks, don't start flaming me, my idea is simply a way to do them without having to drill, nothing more. Keep your eyes out for that.

[edweird]

I think your missing the point that adding shims to the ULT actually reduce the distance between the Fire and recharge point.

You can only let them get so close before you have a runaway condition... but I assure you its still very close.

The only thing left to adjust is the stops to take the slack out of the whole thing. Idealy you want a small bit of travel from the fwd stop to the recharge point and a small bit of travel from the fire point to the rear stop. Once we figure out the best way for this we will have the optimized trigger for the RTP.

Adjusting the sear always has made me learly. I will personally take a softer pull over a strong mouseclick type anyday.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

shims

Nope, I totally get what you mean by the shims cutting the shot and recharge distance, in other words, pulling the trigger until it shoots then holding it there, letting it slowly release until you basically feel the air refill the chamber, the distance you released to get this point is what you mean. If the distance is so little that the front of the sear can't lock the bolt, it will shoot again and again (runaway) until either the trigger is released more and the sear locks or it's pulled again so it seals the air flow again. But by using my idea we can cut the trigger pull it takes to move the sear the small distance required to seperate shoot and recharge properly like you have by even more without risking runaway. That is one reason I brought up 20%, that would really cut it to a short pull without any more increased risk of runaway. But it would add 20% weight to the pull. And what you say is exactly right, it's all a matter of preference, I think I would prefer a little more feel to the pull and it should increase the reactivity by 20% more too, which would aid the shorter distance even more in preventing chuffs.

And my idea totally involves the stops, you have been real cool to me and I'll definitely bounce the idea off you first if you want as I know you will be a good judge and not go ahead and try it before we've thought it out enough. Some others might do it and if it damages anything, blame me. The whole reason I haven't done this yet is because I want to do the appropriate thinking first. But I think you'll like this idea. Give me a day or two to create a schematic.

I am REAL leary about modifying sears, which is why I was so adamant about having input from skilled techs first. But I was also confident this would work as I thought (and it sounds like it does). With my idea, and the reduction being reduced to only 15-20% change instead of 50%, it could even be a drop-in sear to let the user decide which to use (stock or this) and not involve major mods. A 20% change may not even require the trigger extension as originally planned. I am looking into this cautiously and also will look into my stop idea with the same caution. But to me shorter pull almost is as important as lighter. Light enough to easily walk it, short enough to easily walk it and minimize chuffs, that is the balance I want. And I got strong fingers so sacrificing lightness might not be so bad for me. We'll see.

[AGD]

Quincy,

This is not the appropriate thread for this discussion. Please delete it and repost in the workshop forum.

Thanks

AGD

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

stopblock idea

OK, I got told to move this here even though it's presenting a possible future mod for Mags and something that could help out AGD in the evolution of their Mag. Enjoy!!

(from other thread)
OK, here is idea #2 that goes with the shorter pull, I advise that I am posting this so Edweird, Dayspring, AGD, and people who know Mag's technical functionality extremely well can evaluate it and I would not recommend others to try to replicate it until some brainstorming is done in this thread.

If the ULE Trigger is going to benefit from a short pull, and trigger stops are needed in the front or back of the pull, it's going to be tough for the average user to get it modified, and once a hole is drilled it is there forever.

Alternative? Sure, here it is...

Imagine a block, shaped to fit right in the gap under the trigger and slides under the trigger with slotted rails on both sides and sits snugly with a type of hook design that sits over the safety, and the other side is secured when the grip frame screw is put through the frame. It won't move or adjust itself this way and sits the same way on all mags. Now this alone will not have any benefit, however it will use plates that are thin metal sheets that slide into any of the multiple spaces for it in the block. With the rail over top, these plates will sit flush with the top of the blocks and be held secure by the rail pushing down on it. The idea is for these plates to be adjustable, for two plates to be put in any front and back combination that will be the trigger stops. So this mod will work for anyone as each Mag could have different stop points so it's customizable to each Mag and does not require drilling and can easily be changed or even removed. You just slide the block on over the trigger, set some stops out further, set the gun up, check the pull, and keep moving the stops closer until they are at just the right spot (tight with just minimal forward and back play after the full trigger motion needed.

Notes to make: the diagram is general, there would be many more slots much closer together so fine tuning can be done. Also, it is not to scale but identifies the key points: slides in, held down tight, allows adjustable stops, no drilling and is removable. Don't even have to remove the trigger to put it in.

So what do you think? Would this work for the stops possibly needed for the ULE on/off?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

stopblock

Stopblock idea (what I mentioned to Edweird in regards to a new idea I was going to contribute to help out the evolution of the Mag) moved to Workshop forum as requested (didn't even know there was one), anyone interested take a look over there. You may like the idea and it relates to the ULE on/off and the sloped sear idea. Don't post regarding it in this thread please.

I presume the rest of the thread is ok as its focus is brainstorming and market researching (forum consensus) to find out what can be done to help with the remarkable new ULE on/off which I'm dying to get my hands on and to see what people are interested in doing. The sear adjustment was a sidenote to it. I am going to wait for the ULE on/off and then decide if I want to try the sear idea out. I might not depending on the consensus I receive.

How about it folks, though? You have, lets say 10 units X 15oz with the new ULE. Totally hypothetical and I don't know the distance so lets say the current pull distance is 10 units. This could be before or after stops, ULE shims, and anything else that factors in to it. You have to always equal 150, but what would you prefer? Keeping the distance (10 units) and weight (15oz)? Go with 9 units distance (10% further reduction in distance) but a heavier pull? (16.67 ounces)? 8 units (20% shorter than stock) and an 18.75oz pull? I am preferential to the 8 X 18.75, sounds like Edweird likes the 10 X 15. It's all a matter of taste.

I am really interested in hearing what the AO community would prefer, so please post away with your preferred balance. Don't go below 8 X 18.75 though, probably too heavy a pull to be useful and it will put the sear at too much of an angle.

Those who have the new ULE on/off please also post with your descriptive opinions on how the trigger feels now that you've had a chance to adjust and play with it, especially about what took getting used to (pulling again too soon probably?) and how walkable it is or if it is still a little too heavy or perhaps if it is a little too long to walk still. I am dying to try it, haven't yet, and would love to hear your stories.

[edweird]

Here this will make it easier for everyone...........

If your intrested in this thread and want to chat further please refer to this Thread


MODS if your reading this please merge this thread with the one I linked to above. I would ask you to do so in chat but im slacking off at work now and cant use chat under threat of getting my manhood cut off

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

merge

Edweird makes a good point, a merge would be great but I would encourage people to keep an eye on this and keep contributing. I have a feeling it might become buried and ignored in the workshop and I am confident this is a great pair of ideas for AGD. The whole idea of customizing your marker is a big selling point. How much more custom is getting to select your pull weight, distance, and front and back stops? Almost total trigger customization and it keeps it mechanical as well. But if this is not wanted by anyone then that's that.

With that said.... see you all in the Workshop!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

sear

OK, took the sear to a machine shop and they evaluated the possibility of drilling a second hole slightly above the first one... nope. Sears are made of really hard steel and the drill wouldn't be able to get through it. They might be able to with a carbide drill bit but they didn't have one. So the best way to do this idea is to request AGD to produce sears (or ask the person they send the order for sears to be made by) to put a second hole just a little higher up on the sear so that if any of us want the flexibility to change the stroke (customization) we can.

...and no, it has not even been put in my Mag yet, it is a backup sear, and most likely won't be put in there unless it's verified my idea is safe. So no, my warranty is not void as of yet.