stopblock idea

[classicmagplayer]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


I don`t quite get it either. Think I`ve forgotten most of my university fluid dynamics courses.

What I can say with certainty is it`s not quite as simple as the analogy given.

After all, If you tried to support your piece of plywood with a broom stick, you`d stil ahve to hold up a ton of weight.

Thats not what i was trying to say...i was saying a larger area(piece of plywood) under the same pressure(waterfall) would have a greater force than a small area(just the person) under the same pressure(waterfall) I guess a better example would have been someone holding a book and a piece of plywood under a waterfall. Book would have a smaller area so it would have less force then the larger area of the plywood. That make sence?


Oh and i asked one of the guys at IAO today if they had any ULE triggers left, he said no, but they should be up in a week or two.

Hmmm i got an extra sear and my new X valve...might have to try this tomorrow when I get some air. Wish I had an adjustable tank so I could crank up the input pressure though.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

interest

Ok, starting to generate some new interest. To answer a few things:

Meph, I don't have one yet either man, but I got to wait till the next paycheck and pay a little over a grand on Amex and over six-hundred in rent before I know what I have to spend so I'm not hitting the fields anytime soon. But I can't wait to get one of these.

Silent, "huge chunk edited because my plans for the future have been slightly modified ...) If you want to see this be evaluated and taken seriously, encourage your friends here on AO to post here saying what a good idea this is and that they would want this understanding the possibly heavier pull. Enough voices and this'll be noticed. But I'm a non-AGD sponsored, non-techie, non-paintball store owner, non- everything except just a guy who loves this game and is leading this innovation out of pure curiousity. I am most likely going to try it myself and if it works keep it in my Mag (and maybe help classicmagplayer and other people who helped to produce their own) and then evaluate possible options of further production "another edit ".

Futuremagowner, when I did my last post I was looking right at my sear I replaced with the Xvalve one thinking how I can prototype this idea with my Intelliframe and XValve. One thing I am concerned about is that the platform on the trigger is really needed to stop the pin from dropping down into the trigger frame and I think moving the part that hangs down back is also needed for this idea to work properly. If you have the equipment to do this, go for it and I can't wait to see the results. And definitely post them! I am going to see what I can do and might just jury-rig something to see if I can replicate what the pull would be like if this new sear was built.

Thats all for tonight folks, tell your friends to post in this thread to give their support for this, if you are reading this and haven't posted yet but like to see this happen enter a post with as little as one line just saying "I like this idea, can AGD look into it?"

This is exactly what AO was designed for, lets make this a reality. Keep the posts coming and the views racking up.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

side question

Side question:

I am looking at the icon next to this thread and it's still that blue envelope and it has a black dot on it, why has it not moved to an overfilled envelope considering the views and posts exceed the numbers listed below and what does that black dot mean? Have we been blackballed by the mods, is that what the black dot means? lol, that would make my day, I'd be laughing my head off. G'night gentlemen, keep the posts a-coming!

[Dayspring]

Shims- this is to alter the "length" of the on/off pin. Since they are only doing one pin length, the shims change the point at which the on/off seals with the oring inside.

Install- yes. It's fairly easy to install. Using locktite is the EASIEST way to do part of it b/c what you think is one long piece is actually 2. (on/off pin and the on/off support). It IS possible to not locktite it but you have to be careful taking it apart or you lose the poarts.

MISC- Basically, the tech class covered Emag/Xmag trigger pulls, adjusting the pull, some physics behind the pull- (pre-travel, hysteresis & post travel), how Hybrid and Emode relate to each other, recharge & fire points, ACE adjustments, 3.0 software & ULE trigger.

The small diameter on/off actually reduces the weight of the pull. (NOT getting into the physics of it. Tom took all morning to explain the physics behind the pull before he got to the ULT. ) Will answer more specific tomorrow. Tired now. Just got home from IAO.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

up

Welcome back from IAO everybody, looks like we made a solid impact there. I hope everybody had fun.

I have no new information to contribute right now but still somewhat shocked this has not received even the slightest attention from some of AO's brighter minds. I am just a 9-5 working guy addicted to this game like most of you. As I said before I do not own a store, I do not do customs, heck I only own one Mag (although it IS an all-AGD ULE badboy) because frankly rent stinks and so does paying college loans, but I interact closely with this site and I am loyal to AGD and I think I may have actually devised something with classicmagplayer that could make the Mag line be improved further or at least give customers an option. Maybe I haven't and people at AGD or the brighter minds here at AO know exactly why not (won't cycle right, sear damage, etc) but I've done all I can to promote and devise this idea. You're all posting on other threads so don't tell me you're busy. It's your turn folks. Help us follow through on this one. And people reading this and interested, post SOMEthing regarding your thoughts on this idea.

That's all I got for now, what have you all got?

[Dayspring]

I'll say this. Leave modifiying the sear to the professionals. There's a reason why the sear is shaped the way it is. The sear is actually coated, but that coating is VERY thin. You start cutting, you get to the soft/chewy center. BAD. The actual physics behind the placement of the sear pin is amazing. (tech class) Tom can actually make the trigger pull lighter, but the travel of the trigger would double. We already know people will accept a longer pull- double trigger.

But DO NOT start messing with the sear. drilling holes and moving stuff around WILL affect how the gun pulls. Badly.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

EVOLUTION

Dayspring, you have illustrated exactly why I am so shocked that the skilled professionals have remained silent until the point you contributed. I consider you one of these authorities whose opinion I value and trust, you truly are an authority on Automags and I am happy you brought up that modifying the sear could result in the sear breaking... but without AGDs help in producing a new prototype sear or contributing thoughts about why it would or wouldn't work, myself and classicmagplayer have no other option but to try it ourself. With the jerks at smartparts trying to raise costs of electronic markers this could give our markers an edge in the mechanical genre. It would be foolish to just ignore.

I am sure the balance is very scientific and it is a step above my knowledge. For the previous Mag setup the balance may have worked, but with the ULE on-off push against the sear being changed an X factor has been mixed in, and this is all about evolution of the sear. And we are not talking about lengthening the pull, it's about shortening it. Before the ULE on/off the pull was heavy enough, now we have room to work with since its reduced so much. I am talking about redefining the science used in the sear. Evolution. If there is no way this idea could work because AGD looks into it and tries it, ok cool, no problem. But Automags.org is about presenting ideas and giving them a shot to see what it can do. The Lvl 7 bolt was AGD's outdated component, AGD looked to improve it. Superbolt 1 came, failed, but was evaluated more, EVOLVED, and the Lvl 10 came from that. Redefined how the bolt and power tube functioned, evolved it. Classic body, powerfeed body, ULE body, evolution. The ULE on/off went through evolutions, it had times when it sucked and even now it has a weakness but the weakness is how it's activated (the pull). So here is the next step of evolution. The sear. The same sear used for ages in Mags. The bottleneck in my opinion. I have presented an idea and it sounds feasible. It could eliminate shortstrokes and make the Mag rip. So now it needs the experts to evaluate it and if it sounds good to them it needs to be tested. If AGD doesn't want to evolve, that's sad and I dont believe that's the case anyways. But if this won't work, they haven't said that yet. They haven't even acknowledged this idea exists by posting in this thread.

Close to 2000 views, tons of posts, all we want to know from Tom, his techs, and/or the senior AO members is....
In your opinion, could this work? What is your opinion on this? I've been spending all this time posting here yet it's almost entirely falling on deaf ears..

[Dayspring]

I know you want to shorten the pull. The problem is that there is a bunch of things moving that require the post travel of the trigger. The tech class illustrated this. There are parts of the firing cycle- pre travel, hysteresis & post travel. There are points within that travel that are required to make it work- recharge (where the gun is fully recharged and ready to fire) & fire. (there's also front and rear stop- the limit of the trigger travel.)

In order to get everything to work right, you need a certain amount of travel. There's going to come a point where you can't shorten it any more. That's why people try and adjust their trigger rods. They want to decrease the distance between the firing point and the recharge point. As it stands now, we're about as close as it's going to get with having the marker fire reliably.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

plan B

Some rules can be bent, some can be broken... that is why AGD would be very helpful in evaluating this and also contributing to it being revised and perfected, they are the authority.

All the laws you brought up will still exist. Shortening the part that hangs down will not eliminate them, a screw still turns the same way no matter how far out you are holding the handle of the wrench but the closer to the center of the wrench you hold it, the less your hand has to move. So all parts above it stay the same. If changing the point of rotation will throw this then a new way to use the sloped angle to push the sear in the same movement it does now needs to be evaluated to keep it in the same place. The SEAR will travel the same distance and direction, and that is all that matters. It's the sloped pin that allows a shorter trigger pull to move the sear the same distance and direction. I bet the reason the part of the sear that hangs down has not been shortened is because the Mag would end up with a 5lb pull. Way too much to be wanted. Now thats changed. A slanted sear would do this.

The points of motion required will be there, but I KNOW we can make it a shorter pull by this reverse leverage idea. Please keep the counterpoints coming, you are doing exactly what I hoped someone would. It's stress-testing my idea and if you have any questions on what I just posted don't hesitate to ask.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Alternative

Editing this post because it was me venting a little and it was inappropriate to act that way. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't like AGD the most and enjoy posting and contributing to AO but it bummed me a little that no one in the senior membership or from AGD care at all to post to this, it's discouraging and makes me think I shouldn't waste my time responding to threads asking input about new products either because my opinion is totally overlooked. But anyways, I previously said I might drop the project, and it has gone back-burner, but I'm going to keep looking into it. But please, those with technical knowledge on the Mag, please do contribute your thoughts, I'm putting serious thought into this and hope it can work, but without you even acknowledging it won't work I have no idea where to go from here. I definitely appreciate your response Dayspring, and you will notice I did value your opinion and revised my idea.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

revised

I took Dayspring's point of not modifying the sear into consideration and revised my idea. As indicated in the pic, instead of modifying the current sear, an extension could be designed that changes the location of the pin relative to the pivot point of the sear. This provides three benefits over my prior design:

1.) Since classicmagplayer and I are the only ones looking to maybe try this (and who besides Dayspring and a few others seem to care at all about investigating into improving the Mag pull distance), it'll make testing it easier and not involve damaging the sear itself and let the sear work with it's normal functionality. I still expect a possible issue of the first part of the pull being stiff but unless the fulcrum part CAN be moved back without causing issues then I guess this'll have to do. But if this gets the pull reduced, with the new ULE on/off allowing the point of fire and recharge to be minimal and the forward and back stops that edwierd is working on, this could make a pull as short as an electronic trigger.

2.) It can be a drop-in kit that can be removed, although once the appropriate and most beneficial location on the sear is found, a little ledge should be polished into the sear fulcrum so the mod sits better and doesn't slide down.

3.) It allows the Emag parts to still connect to the location where the sear currently is. The fulcrum isn't being shortened, only adding a part for the sear pin to connect to instead.

So the idea is that part one is the previously mentioned extension to the trigger that is needed to allow the push to be the same as it is currently. By rotating on a 90 degree axis like the current trigger does, no extra trigger distance is needed to push the pin the same distance as it currently does. Having the push be horizontal but the pin moving diagonally would cause further movement in the trigger to be needed. Part 2 near the bottom of the extension is the ledge for the sear pin to sit, perhaps a way for it to clamp on the pin so the pin doesn't fall into the trigger frame. Part 3 is the actual extension. The sear pin would connect to it much like it does to the current sear but at a higher point on the fulcrum as previously devised. The orange part is the part that clamps to the current sear and stops it from moving. A rubber lining to prevent slipping could work.

So there's the revision..... any thoughts?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

the pic

grrr.. I always forget the pic.

[edweird]

OK... ive scanned this thread and have to say I think you guys should attend the techclass and get on the same page as Dayspring and myself.

Now that that is said let me begin with saying that the sear is designed in such a way as to allow equal pressure from the fulcrum be transfered in such a way to balance out the rest of the system. Monkeying with the sear only going to throw the rest of the system out of wack. The lengths of each arm are designed to be equi-distant from the fulcrum and thus apply the same balancing force throughout.

Also lets clear up the concept of what the ULT mod does to the trigger pull.

Basicly imagine 4 points to the trigger swing. From the front to the back you have:
1. Front stop
2. Recharge Point
3. Fire Point
4. Back stop

The part of the mech trigger pull you really worry about is the distance between the 2nd and 3rd point. The other 2 points are not in play for the fireing cycle.

Now this is where the shims of the ULT come in. By adding shims you move the Recharge point closer to the fire point. Eventually you will get to a point where the fire point is to close to the recharge point and a condition of runaway is automatic. As we know this is NO GOOD! So all you have to do is remove the shims to the point where its out of danger of running away.

Im still thinking of the best way to shorting the distance between the recharge point and the forward stop. Doing this will reduce the obscene appearance of the over all length of the RT pull regardless of the actual operating length.

If this means rolling out the rod length to push the whole middle of the swing closer to the forward stop, Or even installing a setscrew in the front of the trigger to push the middle of the swing to the back stop. Eventually we will figure out what is better via good old school trial and error.

[AGD]

Quincy,

If you shorten the tang on the sear like you said it would DOUBLE the trigger force and HALF the stroke. Yes you can do it but everyone wants a softer trigger over a shorter one.

AGD

[shinobidice]

<head is spinning.. this should get moved to deep blue, all that high tech smart talk, i expected the news, just i got confused like halfway down the first page. maybe its cause its 1:30 in the morning.. im goin ta bed i'll re-read later