byop or fpo

[drg]

Hey, if some electro paint slinger needs more paint during a game I have no problem tossing him a 10rounder.

Jokes aside, the OP has a concern about velocity changing with the introduction of mismatched paint during a game. I think he does have a point, and it's one that is pretty much never addressed. That said, a no-sharing policy should take care of that. Of course it doesn't stop the same player from using mismatched paint; that might be an education issue.

[CoolHand]

Jokes aside, the OP has a concern about velocity changing with the introduction of mismatched paint during a game. I think he does have a point, and it's one that is pretty much never addressed. That said, a no-sharing policy should take care of that. Of course it doesn't stop the same player from using mismatched paint; that might be an education issue.

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[drg]

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Speaking for myself and my setups, it would be fairly easy to overchrono by going from a .682 draxxus ball to a .689 nelson ball. And I match paint. There is some leeway as far as getting an oversize ball to fire and not break.

With the advent of open-bolt semis, the general tendency is to run a largeish bore (.689 or so) intended to be capable of shooting all types of paint. Given that many paint brands these days are tiny (I get rollouts sometimes on a .682 back), it is probably not too far-fetched for the situation you noted about to be reality -- a large bore barrel with tiny paint. It's not really that extreme of a situation to think that someone borrowing a pod of larger bore paint could go over chrono.

Is it enough to worry about? From a safety standpoint it's probably debatable. But it can have a huge affect on consistency which is why I don't borrow paint.

[Mechanic79]

A "no paint sharing" rule is lame. the velocity shouldn't change THAT much unless you are right at 300 fps with perfectly matched paint which would be potentially dangerous. Paint sharing provides camaraderie. and I don't see people doing it that often and it's usually 1 pod or less. What if people are sharing the exact same paint?

I try to use paint that DOESN'T stain.

I try NOT to play at fields that are FPO.

[Twistedpsyche]

If a change in the paint size can affect your velocity then we have a couple other issues to consider

#1 Paint is inconsistent. Even the same paint from the same supplier, even in the same case can have rather large (or what we in paintball would call large) differences in size and shape.

#2 Weather can affect your paint. It can swell, it can shrink.

#3 Co2. If someone is using Co2 it can cause spikes and lows in velocity. So are we using Co2 at the field? If safety is a concearn SHOULD we be using Co2? Let's face it, it is much more volatile that compressed air.

#4. What is the field using for a rental gun? Most fields I know use either a 98c or A-5 or something along those lines. Not the most consitent guns out there. I know everone of those I've used can be + or - 5 to 10 fps at any time. How fast your shooting can also affect velocity if you're using an inconsistent marker.

Basicaly what I'm trying to get at here is that saying FPO is for safety may sound nice, but over all I think it's a load. If you wanna tell me "it's how we make our money" Ok, I believe that, that's fine we all need to make money. But please don't tell me it's for safety. Yes there are some real crap paints out there. Monester balls. Every BYOP field I've ever been to bans the stuff. With good reason. It's crap. It's hard, it sticks to everything, blah.

So yeah, that's my $.02

[Hexis]

But please don't tell me it's for safety. Yes there are some real crap paints out there.

There is a significant difference between removing the worst threats to safety and making something completely safe.

If FPO removes some significant threats to safety (bad paint in many forms), then it has improved safety, not perfected it.

There also does not have to be a single reason to require FPO. Improvements in safety and better profit margins are both on their own good reasons. Together they provide mutiple good reasons for a FPO policy.

[93civiccpe]

I'll try to reword my stance,
My problem is that we have a field here in my state that a lot of people believe has the best woodsball fields in the area. I agree with that. Now, it is something like $20 for entrance fee and all day air. The only paint option you usually have is Stinger paint (or whatever else they have cheap) and it costs $65. Now, if it was good quality paint, that was round and not brittle, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. But when the paint is kept in their "semi-conditioned" hut there, and often has dimples, is not round, and is very brittle, I tend to not play there.

I actually went there one morning and asked to see a case of paint before paying. The manager opened the box and it was so crappy that me and the group I was with (9 other guys) started heading for our cars. He came running out trying to figure out why. Their website states that you can get paint for $45, $55, or $65 at the field, depending on what grade. They only had one type (cheap stinger) and they had it priced at $65. It was your only choice. I explained that to him nicely, and he got really frustrated, at which point I informed him "the customer is always right." And then we left for a different field.

I don't mind supporting a field. I just don't know what the problem is with that owner. They have INCREDIBLE fields. I mean, really really well designed fields with a lot of buildings and timber work.. dug out trenches.. a really nice setup. By why would you do that to your customers with the cost of paint. I do not mind paying $60-$65 if I'm getting good paint, but unfortunately that's not the case there.

[usagi_tetsu]

Personally (and I didn't read everyone else's response, being lazy today) I would obviously prefer BYOP at a field, as I can make my game days more cost effective that way. However, I have enough sense of what it costs to operate a field and how thin a profit margin that type of endeavor really is, and so I don't complain when I play at an FPO field. *shrug* This sport of ours is not terribly lucrative, and we as players have to make sacrifices to keep our favorite fields in business. That being said, if I'm not happy with a field, I make sure to let them know about it and how to fix it, and if they don't fix, I take my business elsewhere and spread news to other players to stay away.

Basically, if the field is surviving by making their profit from paint sales, then we as customers can either have that field stay open by supporting their business, or watch it close down by not. If your field, sir, can get by (because you have enough volume and charge enough on entry fees) and be profitable without FPO, I say go for it. But if not, either the paint flinging populace will support your business because your field is good enough, or they won't, becuase it's not enjoyable enough.

[flying Dutchman]

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Okay folks here's an example of the miss match of paint and barrels. Today we had a game on our indoor field. This gentleman zeroed his speed in with a 227, 229, 230 fps. Nice string looking good. Thought he might change the freek kit insert. Put ina different size and headed for the field. I brought him back and asked for 3 more shots. the first was 298 the second was 278 the third was 302. So if changing the barrel size can do that so can changing the paint size. Before you ask were using our Radar Chronograph. Paid too much to think it not accurate. There's the facts folks!

[flying Dutchman]

I'll try to reword my stance,
My problem is that we have a field here in my state that a lot of people believe has the best woodsball fields in the area. I agree with that. Now, it is something like $20 for entrance fee and all day air. The only paint option you usually have is Stinger paint (or whatever else they have cheap) and it costs $65. Now, if it was good quality paint, that was round and not brittle, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. But when the paint is kept in their "semi-conditioned" hut there, and often has dimples, is not round, and is very brittle, I tend to not play there.

I actually went there one morning and asked to see a case of paint before paying. The manager opened the box and it was so crappy that me and the group I was with (9 other guys) started heading for our cars. He came running out trying to figure out why. Their website states that you can get paint for $45, $55, or $65 at the field, depending on what grade. They only had one type (cheap stinger) and they had it priced at $65. It was your only choice. I explained that to him nicely, and he got really frustrated, at which point I informed him "the customer is always right." And then we left for a different field.

I don't mind supporting a field. I just don't know what the problem is with that owner. They have INCREDIBLE fields. I mean, really really well designed fields with a lot of buildings and timber work.. dug out trenches.. a really nice setup. By why would you do that to your customers with the cost of paint. I do not mind paying $60-$65 if I'm getting good paint, but unfortunately that's not the case there.

I agree with you if you're getting charged big bucks for crap speak up. But for that very same price if I sell you Chronic, evil, all star or marbs, would you be happy?

[flying Dutchman]

It's actually quite a simple issue, in my opinion.

I prefer field paint only when that system is properly implemented.

When the field paint only system is broken, I prefer to be able to bring my own.



I'll give an example of two fields, one FPO, one BYOP. I won't name them but understand that these are major fields that I play on regularly.

FPO - They have been switching the paint around between events lately and the quality has been up and down. The paint is fairly expensive but they do try to get quality paint and they do make most of their money on paint sales. The nice thing about this field is that everyone has the same paint. You have the same paint-related problems as everyone else out there so there's no bias. Sure, everyone would like for the paint to always shoot well but that's never going to happen. By having a single brand of high-quality paint available, you eliminate any advantage that can be gained through the paint. I really, really like this.

BYOP - They sell paint at the field - various brands and quality. Sometimes you get a good batch, sometimes you don't. The field fee is also very high to compensate for the low paint sales. I have yet to get a batch of paint from this field that has shot well. The only solution is to BYO because the system is "broken." Good paint is a major advantage in the game. In a situation where good paint cannot be purchased but CAN be brought, those players who have the best paint have a significant advantage over others. Obviously, this leads to further handicapping of new players and/or renters who didn't know that they should have brought their own paint. As a recreational player, I don't like to see the new guys at such a huge disadvantage. Note that this would be the same problem if the field were FPO but had many brands to choose from, as new players would likely get the cheapest stuff and be at a disadvantage. Perhaps it's easy to argue that it's their own fault but really, doesn't the field have a responsibility to help new players and renters have a good time as well? I think cheap paint is a hindrance to that.



I think the perfect setup is to have a single brand of high-quality paint, FPO. It's fair for every player, helps keep the field fees down, provides better revenue for the field at a fair cost to the players and actually helps out the new players, even if they complain that the paint is too expensive.

Well said I can see you know your stuff.

[flying Dutchman]

Hey, if some electro paint slinger needs more paint during a game I have no problem tossing him a 10rounder.

Tell him you'll trade him tube for tube! hehe

[CoolHand]

Okay folks here's an example of the miss match of paint and barrels. Today we had a game on our indoor field. This gentleman zeroed his speed in with a 227, 229, 230 fps. Nice string looking good. Thought he might change the freek kit insert. Put ina different size and headed for the field. I brought him back and asked for 3 more shots. the first was 298 the second was 278 the third was 302. So if changing the barrel size can do that so can changing the paint size. Before you ask were using our Radar Chronograph. Paid too much to think it not accurate. There's the facts folks!

Three shots does not a working theory make, but for the purposes of discussion we will assume that this is 100% repeatable in all instances.

The data I'd like to see is the variance over an entire case of paint. This will mimic the conditions of requiring FPO. It is a fact that paintballs even from the same case will have variations in ball OD. This is an observable phenomena, but it can also be easily measured with a mic and a couple of hours.

If a change in OD of the ball (or ID of barrel) of no more than 0.016" (the smallest Freak bore to the largest Freak bore) makes a 75 fps change in velocity, then I would bet you will see nearly that inside a single case of paint. I would not be surprised at all to see a standard deviation of 0.004"-0.007" inside of a single case of paint. At 5 fps per 0.001" of OD deviation, that's a swing of -+20 to -+35 fps within the same case of paint, to say nothing of the next or the one after that, even from the same manufacturer and batch.

What I'm saying is that the manufacturing process that creates paintballs is not itself accurate or controllable enough that you can even come close to predicting the relation of ball OD from ball to ball inside the same case, to say nothing of the relation from case to case, even within the same manufacturer.

There may very well be an extreme correlation between barrel size and velocity (though I have not found it to be as stark as your example, let's assume for now that it is). Even if that is true, the risk of hot shots is not greatly (or possibly even significantly enough to measure) reduced by forcing players to only use paint from one manufacturer. The variation in OD will be there regardless of who is making the paint. Regardless if some brands on average are smaller or larger than other brands on average, the risk you seek to eliminate is still present, and going to FPO as a means to reduce said risk is a token step at best.

I'm glad you think about safety, and I'm glad you sell your FP at good prices and take care of it, and I know most fields need to be FPO to make a profit and stay in business. I'm fine with that, and I think most people are too. What kind of irritates me is that you refuse to just come out and say that the reason you need your field to be FPO is monetary. It may seem like it sounds better to say it's for safety, but that is a contrived reason, and regardless of whatever anecdotal data you come up with that you think justifies you to declare "There's the facts folks!", it will still be a contrived reason.

Until you put down some honest to god data, covering paint from two or three manufacturers both against one another, and against the contents of the same case, it's only your opinion.

My opinion is that it doesn't make that much difference. I could test to prove it (just the same as you can), but in the end I just don't care enough to spend the day or two it's going to take to run the tests. I can live with it just being my opinion.

You however, if you're going to try and sell people on the FPO thing as a safety measure, might want to undertake those tests and really see if you're right. At least then you'd have some actual data to put behind your arguments when someone calls you on it. Hell, it may turn out that you're absolutely right, and FPO will be mandated by insurance carriers as a proven risk reducer. I've been wrong before.

But until that happens, I'm gonna go ahead and file that assertion into the same bin as JD's AI Revy board, and Jack Rice's magical Alien trajectories. You bring the claim, you bring the data, simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you (hell, I don't even know you), I just have a low BS tolerance (which seems to be diminishing rapidly as I age), and I'm an outspoken A-Hole to boot. You can see where I'm going with this . . . . . . .

[SR_matt]

also just something i thought about, unless that guy who "changed the insert" was watched the whole time how can we say for sure nothing else was changed on the marker. also there are so many things that cause fps fluxes.

but i had a pump gun set up to the point of shooting +/- 1 fps on a bad day, (now it is shooting +/- 2 fps about average but i changed some stuff and started to run co2 due to the tank size but i digress) so matter what paint i put in it i was getting no fluctuation on the fps so, at least in my situation, paint variations mean nothing to extremely little. ill agree that big changes in size matches will give some fluctuation or consistency changes but i really think there are many more things in the guns that will give changes (heck my mag now is pretty jumpy (i had it perfect keeping really consistent but then it was just a little to high for a field, turned it down just a touch and now its all over the place no matter what i do to it it still is after over a year.

so basically while barrels may change some fps readings i would bet just normal gun spikes would be more than what the barrel gives.
-matt

[93civiccpe]

I agree with you if you're getting charged big bucks for crap speak up. But for that very same price if I sell you Chronic, evil, all star or marbs, would you be happy?

You hit my point on the head Flying Dutchman. If they had quality paint, I'd happily pay the price. One of the things that irks me the most is that they have printed on their advertisements as well as on their website that they sell 3 grades of paint at the field.. white box, midgrade, and tournament. (ranging from 45, 55, & 65). Then when you get there and they are forcing you to use the $65 paint as it is all they have available, and it is crappy paint, I have no problem walking away. If they truly had all 3 types of paint, I would use the $55 or $65 stuff happily. But $65 for dimpled, brittle stinger just burns me up, and makes me not want to come back. It sounds like you are doing the right thing, just don't ever make the mistake above, as it could cost you people.

I typically purchase items from my local shop to support them, even if I could get it cheaper online. I like seeing and holding what I'm purchasing and getting it right away. Not to mention I know a lot of the guys who work there and it is nice to shoot the bull and see the new stuff that has come in. I love supporting the local guys, and have never had a problem playing at FPO fields, as long as they offer good quality paint and don't kill me too much on the price. $60 - $65 is perfectly fine as long as it is quality paint.