byop or fpo

[SR_matt]

I'll re run that portion of the test tomorrow. But I'll do this for you. I'll set speed with Nelsplat to 300 then test both All Star and nelsplat. Then I'll reset the velocity with Premuim as the base line and retest both Nelsplat and All star to see how they behave in a gun set with a different brand. Now if Set at 300 with Nelsplat and the All Star comes in shooting 20-30 feet above that does that make a point????

i think that will make a good point... but for that set up, yes it should carry over some what consistently but if some one had opposite results i wouldnt be surprised


as a note i will bet that with that marker in its current state you will get the results you are expecting
-matt

[RRfireblade]

So this thing went all over the place. :)

I guess I'll just start at the begining and keep it short.


FPO , BYOP. - I don't have a problem with either as long as the FPO is fairly priced and of reasonable quality for said price. Pretty much what most have stated. The problem is that for most of us that have been around long enough and played in enough places is , we have heard EVERY FPO field say thier prices are good and thier paint is great quality only to find out more often than not , this is far from the case.

Kudo's to you , but you are certainly the exception to the rule across the board.


The velocity issue. Switching paint will most definately change velocity , there is no question there. Many fields I've been to Chrono through out the day and that should be the case IMO. There are many more reasons than paint for that , heat and humidity changes , inconsistant guns , various air sources. There are a dozen reasons why a marker may change velocity. You have to check more than once a day , period. That is not a FPO or BYOP issue regardless.

:)

Lastly ,
As a SC Pump player most of the time , to be honest , I pretty much always BMOP. I NEED the best possible paint set up for my markers to perform at thier absolute best. Every single shot must count. Fortunately , all the fields I play at allow me to do so , especially given the small amount of paint I shoot. I do often pay additional for the privledge. I've even bought the min required of FPO in some cases and just bring it home for testing.

So that's my pinion.

[CoolHand]

I'll re run that portion of the test tomorrow. But I'll do this for you. I'll set speed with Nelsplat to 300 then test both All Star and nelsplat. Then I'll reset the velocity with Premuim as the base line and retest both Nelsplat and All star to see how they behave in a gun set with a different brand. Now if Set at 300 with Nelsplat and the All Star comes in shooting 20-30 feet above that does that make a point????

Probably, but only if the averages show the trend you're proposing.

For instance, if you put the All Star in and get one hot shot, that doesn't prove the point at all, because you have already shown that there is a lot of variability inherent in even the best paint. However, if the average of all the All Star shots is above the average of all the NelSplat shot by more than the variance inside each set, then you can say that your point is proven. Otherwise the data shows no significant deviation.

What I was getting at before is that while the other test showed that the Whitebox exhibits a slightly smaller bore on average than the Premium (due to the slower average measured speed), the difference was lower than the variance inside even the more consistent of the two paints.

The idea was that by limiting the players to a the paint that you sell, you limit the potential for a hot shot, but according to the test you ran, the probability of the next shot from the gun being hot changes very little whether it comes from the exact same case of paint the first one did, or a completely different one from a different brand.

If you pull off the outliers (toss the high and the low in each set), you find that the averages are quite close from brand to brand.

All Star - Avg Spd = 291.50 fps Range = 11 fps
Premium - Avg Spd = 291.75 fps Range = 14 fps
NelSplat - Avg Spd = 277.13 fps Range = 37 fps
Whitebox - Avg Spd = 286.88 fps Range = 43 fps

This is a data set that should cover ~95% of the possible outcomes, and is far more useful for the purposes of making inferences about all the balls in all those cases.

While yes, it is entirely possible for a ball from a case of Premium to produce a hot shot when fired from a marker set to run Whitebox, the probability of that happening is no greater than the probability that any given shot from a case of Whitebox will be hot.

This doesn't prove that the risk is automatically reduced by forcing players to use a paint of your choosing, but rather that risk can be reduced by forcing players to use a higher quality paint that is more consistent.

FPO does not reduce the risk of hot shots in and of itself, but rather it can reduce the risk, if the FPO paint in question happens to be a high quality paint.

Fields that require FPO, but sell Whitebox are no less exposed to hot shots than if all three brands were in used at the same time and switched between willy nilly, because the variation inside the Whitebox paint data set far overshadows the variance from brand to brand.

If you had said that you require the use of a single high quality paint because you have found that it reduces hot shots on the field by being more consistent, your case would be air tight, because that is borne out by this data, but that is not what you said to start out with.

You said that the field being FPO is the cause of the reduced risk, but that is only indirectly true, it's just a happy coincidence that your FPO paint happens to reduce hot shots by being more consistent. This is why I said that you cannot always infer that Y is because of X due to the fact that you observe W.

It's getting late, and my head is getting a little fuzzy, so it's time for me to stop the discussion. Otherwise I may make a mistake and derail the whole discussion.

At any rate, good on ya for taking the time to do some testing, regardless of the outcome. It is absolutely refreshing to see people take a discussion seriously enough to invest time and money in it to prove or dis-prove a point. Well done indeed.

[punkncat]

Just WOW!!!

I tried reading through this, got a decent way down the first page and my BS meter pegged out.

I have NEVER seen a marker increase velocity over 50FPS over a simple change in paint. I have been playing around 10 years and the worst I have ever seen was an occasional 20-30FPS spike with a different paintball. And it is impotant to note that these changes aren't always higher velocity, and can be lowered according to paintball size.

I have always made it a routine to re-chrono my marker after changing brands of paint. Not only to keep myself from getting an infraction for possible hot shots, but to make sure I am getting the best performance by having high enough velocity.

As far as this supposed safety issue....well there are brands of paint that I agree should never be on field. Monsterball comes to mind. I have been whacked my some marbles through the years, anyone remember the old proball?
Yeah, I have to say that as a player I would rather find as brittle a paint as I can w/o it breaking in my marker. I have been playing long enough as have many whom I play with that a bounce is just a missed opportunity. I would rather have you walking off to the dead box. If I have a paint that doesn't perform as expected then I notate it and find something that does.

This "I have to make some profit" argument doesn't carry much water with me. If you are overpriced on your field paint it gets around fast, and the end result is that you are trying to squeeze more money out of less players. Less players creates a less dynamic playing environment.
Money can be made through volume of players as well. Less profit margin per case, but more revenue through field fees and air as you tend to gain more players. And in many cases no margin from paint, allowing the player to feel like they have added value by using what brand they prefer and of course many of the other issues brought up about use of old, storing thier own brand etc.

The best way I can put it is to say the state built a highway and then said you can only use the car we provide to drive on it, cause its safer and we can regulate it better. That road would only be used by those that had to.

[Lohman446]

The best way I can put it is to say the state built a highway and then said you can only use the car we provide to drive on it, cause its safer and we can regulate it better. That road would only be used by those that had to.

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

[punkncat]

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

Used simply to make a point. Its not apples and oranges, but I think what I was trying to say comes across pretty easily with the comparison.

[SR_matt]

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

meh, it was a good attempt at trying to put it into common day things but i think the car is to much of a permanent thing where as paint is rather consumable so that is more of an issue i have with it than gov't vs private business

-matt

[punkncat]

meh, it was a good attempt at trying to put it into common day things but i think the car is to much of a permanent thing where as paint is rather consumable so that is more of an issue i have with it than gov't vs private business

-matt

Lol, I can't win.

[SR_matt]

Lol, I can't win.

o no it was more of a "naw naw anw it was fine" to lohman

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

Okay folks, sorry I'm a day late but I had the tests rerun on the velocity. This time I brought in a player to witness and record the results. We ran a new 98 custom stock barrel and temp at 73 degrees. Compressed air on the marker 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 250 257 255 270 252 256 264 248 260 252
High 270 low 248 Range 22 fps Avg speed 256.4


Premium 257 261 255 264 255 272 254 249 254 255
High 272 low 249 Range 23 fps Avg Speed 256.6


Nel Splat 273 266 249 275 275 276 223 279 279 277
High 279 Low 223 Range 56 fps Avg Speed 267.2


White Box 269 268 247 253 238 246 244 209 253 253
High 269 Low 209 Range 60 fps Avg Speed 248

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the All Star and the Premium are the easiest to achieve a safe chrono speed because they don,t range that much. 50-60 fps is going to be really tough to set a safe speed.

It also appears that Nel Splat increased in speed when fired through the marker. This adds evidence to support that by changeing paint you can alter the speed of the marker. Just like changing barrel inserts in a freek system.

This all started over the idea that maybe FPO was a little safer than BYOP. Now so far every player that has smuggled paint in or asked to bring it to the field has never brought better paint as good as what we use. Only cheaper. And truth be told that's what it's really all about.

[robnix]

Okay folks, sorry I'm a day late but I had the tests rerun on the velocity. This time I brought in a player to witness and record the results. We ran a new 98 custom stock barrel and temp at 73 degrees. Compressed air on the marker 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 250 257 255 270 252 256 264 248 260 252
High 270 low 248 Range 22 fps Avg speed 256.4


Premium 257 261 255 264 255 272 254 249 254 255
High 272 low 249 Range 23 fps Avg Speed 256.6


Nel Splat 273 266 249 275 275 276 223 279 279 277
High 279 Low 223 Range 56 fps Avg Speed 267.2


White Box 269 268 247 253 238 246 244 209 253 253
High 269 Low 209 Range 60 fps Avg Speed 248

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the All Star and the Premium are the easiest to achieve a safe chrono speed because they don,t range that much. 50-60 fps is going to be really tough to set a safe speed.

It also appears that Nel Splat increased in speed when fired through the marker. This adds evidence to support that by changeing paint you can alter the speed of the marker. Just like changing barrel inserts in a freek system.

This all started over the idea that maybe FPO was a little safer than BYOP. Now so far every player that has smuggled paint in or asked to bring it to the field has never brought better paint as good as what we use. Only cheaper. And truth be told that's what it's really all about.

Using your numbers I could just as easily argue that the real issue is that cheap paint will fluctuate down in velocity instead of up.

If you look both cases of cheap paint, out of 10 shots you had one shot that was abnormally low. The Nel Splat had one shot that was 26 fps lower than the next lowest, and the White Box had one shot that was 29 fps lower. With the good paint, the drop isn't as dramatic, but the extreme shot is still on the low, NOT the high side. So feel free to use velocity fluctuation as your reasoning behind FPO, but the reality using your numbers is the the problem is smaller paint causing big drops in velocity, not bigger paint causing spikes.

Truth be told what this is really all about is you trying to find statistics that back your assertions of safety as the primary reason for FPO, when even the numbers you have don't show that's the case. Your assertion that the Nel Splat increased in speed is even false, the low shots were #3 and #7, the first shot was within 6 fps of the high.

Run your field however you want, but don't b.s. around about why you're making your decisions. Just say it's to keep the field running, and don't worry. Your prices are fair, I buy FPO premium stuff at .03 to .04 a ball all the time just so the field is getting the profit.

[drg]

Difficult thing to judge by the data provided is just how big those balls are. I mean if they are all within .001 of each other, then that test doesn't really show anything.

[flying Dutchman]

I give up guys!

You can beleive whatever you want to. I'm just trying to share facts and get you to think about the possiblity. If you think a ball that ranges 60 fps from high to low is as safe as a ball that moves 20 fps. Then be happy!

It's been fun but I'm out of here.

[SR_matt]

I give up guys!

You can beleive whatever you want to. I'm just trying to share facts and get you to think about the possiblity. If you think a ball that ranges 60 fps from high to low is as safe as a ball that moves 20 fps. Then be happy!

It's been fun but I'm out of here.

i think the thing that is trying to be pointed out is that you have pretty tight ranges with the occasional low shot as apposed to a high shot, if you are chronoing a gun and see 270 230 270 you wont say much because the 3 shots were under 300. at least i have never seen a ref ask to shoot again if all 3 were under the limit unless they were right at it.

that type of jumping is rather consistent, from working at a field i dont remember anyone that had a gun that had spikes up that were very drastic/random compared to the down spikes. thats one reason that a lot of fields go to 285 as the limit so there is a good buffer room.

yes it is a concern and yes i do like FPO as long as the paint is decent and not totally over priced but i really think that the safety thing holds a lot less water than field needs $$ because if the field was concerned that much about safety they would make everyone shoot their markers 100 times with plastic/rubber balls that were more consistent the paint to check to see how much the marker fluctuated.

i am not trying be rude but the fight for safety, after working at a field that ended up going under about a year after i stopped working there, is not as big an issue to the survival of the field as bringing in teh cash

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

i think the thing that is trying to be pointed out is that you have pretty tight ranges with the occasional low shot as apposed to a high shot, if you are chronoing a gun and see 270 230 270 you wont say much because the 3 shots were under 300. at least i have never seen a ref ask to shoot again if all 3 were under the limit unless they were right at it.

that type of jumping is rather consistent, from working at a field i dont remember anyone that had a gun that had spikes up that were very drastic/random compared to the down spikes. thats one reason that a lot of fields go to 285 as the limit so there is a good buffer room.

yes it is a concern and yes i do like FPO as long as the paint is decent and not totally over priced but i really think that the safety thing holds a lot less water than field needs $$ because if the field was concerned that much about safety they would make everyone shoot their markers 100 times with plastic/rubber balls that were more consistent the paint to check to see how much the marker fluctuated.

i am not trying be rude but the fight for safety, after working at a field that ended up going under about a year after i stopped working there, is not as big an issue to the survival of the field as bringing in teh cash

-matt

Why is it everyone I chat with has worked for a field that is out of business???????