So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[snoopay700]

Haven't we gone over this idea before in some bits?

We're talking about integrating a chrony into the gun again, which I think is a good thing, But that does give some technical issues.

Is there any way to do that and not have it integrated into the barrel?

Would you even still need a bolt, or would you go to a feedgate like an epic?

For it to be reliable you would need 2 eyes at the end of the barrel, with a larger id than the normal barrel so it is not still being accelerated at that point.

[Dend78]

Dend... depends who you ask.. some people say there is no friction relationship between the ball and barrel

I'm digging the groove idea... even if it was a short section of straight rifling (your control bore) that allowed the air to be directed along the groove... with a rotating bolt (sorry I'm trying to concentrate on too many things.. with out enough sleep...zzz) that can direct that flow. If you slotted the bolt radially and the air came out of the slot from center to barrel id that would possibly help.

I need to sit and draw this out. An engineers nightmare is to start thinking it through with out pen and paper.. I always forget some factor or really important bit.

E

very true but here is what im pointing to bore size = .689 (a good normal size) ball 1) .686 ball 2) .690 ball 3) .689 ball 4) oblong .680 ball 5) .693 ball 6) .690

each ball will have a different flight path and speed due to size in ball compared to size in bore obviously there is going to be considerable drag on the ball 5 and who knows what ball 4 is gonna do.

then with that same lil idea there that ball 4 is gonna do weird things with the slots, thats what im seeing as an issue. i do agree that a ball can run down a super smooth barrel of the right size with very little friction loss but when you are looking at spinning and such and even trying to get a sensor to adjust chamber dump each shot it only has the ability to use if last shot = (x) fps dump into chamber = (y) on shot 2 just like a computer on a car less air being sensed on last check = less fuel . pretty much what im getting at with that a person would have to have a perfect paintball to get the type of action im thinking Tom is talking about.

here is what im thinking since im already babbeling a circular circuit board with several break beam eyes on it to sense size of the ball, then overall weight will have some issue but basically it could do the math to determine (x) size = approx weight (y) it will vary some but not nearly as much as trying to let just the bore and a set velocity try to adjust for it.

then it could be set like boards of today with different modes based on rules depending on whos still around but like PSP rules it would cap rate of fire and an standard FPS value say of 270. then it would just have to do some math size (x) = weight of (y) = this much air required to attain 270FPS

ok my brain is going into overload mode right now ill stop there

[Lohman446]

very true but here is what im pointing to bore size = .689 (a good normal size) ball 1) .686 ball 2) .690 ball 3) .689 ball 4) oblong .680 ball 5) .693 ball 6) .690

each ball will have a different flight path and speed due to size in ball compared to size in bore obviously there is going to be considerable drag on the ball 5 and who knows what ball 4 is gonna do.

then with that same lil idea there that ball 4 is gonna do weird things with the slots, thats what im seeing as an issue. i do agree that a ball can run down a super smooth barrel of the right size with very little friction loss but when you are looking at spinning and such and even trying to get a sensor to adjust chamber dump each shot it only has the ability to use if last shot = (x) fps dump into chamber = (y) on shot 2 just like a computer on a car less air being sensed on last check = less fuel . pretty much what im getting at with that a person would have to have a perfect paintball to get the type of action im thinking Tom is talking about.

here is what im thinking since im already babbeling a circular circuit board with several break beam eyes on it to sense size of the ball, then overall weight will have some issue but basically it could do the math to determine (x) size = approx weight (y) it will vary some but not nearly as much as trying to let just the bore and a set velocity try to adjust for it.

then it could be set like boards of today with different modes based on rules depending on whos still around but like PSP rules it would cap rate of fire and an standard FPS value say of 270. then it would just have to do some math size (x) = weight of (y) = this much air required to attain 270FPS

ok my brain is going into overload mode right now ill stop there

Remember though - if the need for Perfect Circle paintballs exist TK has a great source. If consistancy from ball to ball mattered to make it work it could be done. We have dealt with imperfect manufacture because the company capable of making them better has been honest in telling us it would make no difference.

[koleah]

I'd like to help with the testing

[drg]

Active velocity control would be a huge ethical and safety concern. That's a Pandora's box best left unopened.

[Sumthinwicked]

i just wanna seee another agd marker booyea

[Beemer]

Active velocity control would be a huge ethical and safety concern. That's a Pandora's box best left unopened.

You kid me right? That box was opened LOOOOOOOONG ago on all concerns. Nobody CARED. Controll set with a limit would be a good thing.

[nerobro]

Active velocity control would be a huge ethical and safety concern. That's a Pandora's box best left unopened.

Well, that's not entirely true. It's already open. With any fast cycling dump chamber gun, varying dwell varies velocity. As does altering the timing on a cocker. And on a linked hammer gun, dwell has a strong effect on velocity too.

It's a box that's been opened, but largely ignored. There was a flash in the pan when people discovered that the clearing button on Matrices would give a single hot shot.

Moving on to the subject of velocity compensation, I don't think that's a viable option. There was mention of a circuit board to try to determine the shape of a paintball and then guess the weight. The concept is good, but the suggested implementation is pretty poor. A few LED's wouldn't come anywhere near an effective resolution for a situation like this.

Effective would need two, or three laser rangefinders, or other 3 scanning device. Even then, you'd only get "relative" changes. That information might be nice, but in the end you'd only be throwing more variables into the equation.

You'd then need to guess at how that ball was going to land in the breach. And or hope that the ball would settle out in your favor, after determining the long axis, and calculating which diameter the ball will settle on in the barrel.

The computing power for that isnt' something you could easily package on a paintball gun. I'd be surprised if a desktop computer could handle that at 10 balls a second, much less 20, and by a micro-controller. It's not crazy, just not something that's even vaguely necessary on a paintball gun. ..... I'd like to see it done though. :-)

With good paint, and a consistent gun. (not one that tries to compensate) +-1 fps is achievable with careful setup. (good barrel choice, ballancing the valve on blowbacks, keeping consistant lube on ram driven guns, a good reg and consistant lube on dump chamber guns...) +-5 is "normal" on a cheap gun. I don't see where there's a hug amount of improvement to be made there. Even with +-5, fps you're only talking a 4% change in ball velocity from peak to valley. I'd be willing to bet (though this would need testing) that the accuracy improvement that comes with ROF would compensate for a 2% velocity change either way. And that's just talking cheap guns. Those numbers get cut by 80% with a good gun, and paint match.

I don't think rotating the bolt would be a good method for distributing air to the sides of the barrel. The timing would be wrong. Unless.... we used a buffer chamber to delay the impulse of air. but that would still be unpredictable. I think a second air valve would be the proper way to take care of that. Air is springy, and we'd end up having to make different size chambers for different velocity ranges, and even different paint fits. :-/ It would a similar relationship to the RT effect on the mags. Hmm...

I like this.. it's been to long since I considered crazy paintball technology.

[minimag03]

Would it not be very very easy you ramp up velocity with a setup like this?

[cockerpunk]

error point detection is gonna be your biggest problem with active velocity control. esp with such a large standard deviation in your shot FPS. +/- 5 FPS is total over any length or percentage of shots. even high end guns with a Confidence interval of 90 percent are gonna only be consistent within +/- 10 or 13 fps.

[snoopay700]

Would it not be very very easy you ramp up velocity with a setup like this?

Not if the board was programmed to turn down the velocity if it got above 300 fps. But like cockerpunk said there would be other issues with active velocity control. The program would essentially have to change the dwell when the velocity got a good amount lower than the standard deviation. I have never had a low end gun that fired +/- 5, even my mag is lucky to get that over more than a few shots, i have had instances where i have gotten a few right on in a row, and i've had times where it differs more than 5 fps. Cockerpunk is right on that point.

[GoatBoy]

Something funny which I read from a Montneel website due to some discussions elsewhere:

Unfortunetly, these prototypes had a serious problem: Every shot fired curved to the right! The source of the problem was discovered to be the side-mounted FPS adjuster. Somehow it was adding a lateral spin that produced the curve.

That would be an interesting thing to check into.

I also wanted to nitpick... hooking left or right might make the paint more precise, but not more accurate. The operator now has two curves to calculate against an estimated distance instead of just one.

And of course, the whole point about the gun not always being tilted the same way. But hey, since everything is pie in the sky, I guess the relevant parts of the gun could be gyro stabilized to always orient itself correctly.



The on-field repercussions of a digitally controlled hook are actually interesting. I always tell the newbies "it doesn't matter how fast the guy is shooting because he can only shoot in one direction at one time." Basically, if they're shooting at someone else, they're not shooting at you, so you should advance on them. Because at the very least, it will take them time to reset and point at you.

However, if you were to set the gun in a mode that alternated left hook and right hook, you could actually hold down two (or more!) bunkers simultaneously without moving. Actually a back/top spin would also help compensate if the two bunkers were at different distances from you. Say you could sit at God and hold down left snake and back right simultaneously.

Of course, then you're screwed if someone decides to run up the middle in between the left/right streams. Unless you configure every third ball to have no hook.

By this point, you'd better be rocking the Pinokio hopper though.

[nerobro]

Cockerpunki:
First, i'm not a statistician. I know enough to get by, and I can understand datasets.

Just so our terms are right here. when I say +-5fps, I'm talking a 10fps range. +-2.5fps, would be a 5fps range. I've seen guns that shot within the same three digits for appreciably long strings. I figure it's not "luck" anymore when you're on shot 10 or 12. I have seen guns that shot the same fps 3 times in a row.

I'm also not about to say these are typical results. I've had experiences where the paint looked more like dice than balls, and to get down to a 20fps was hard, and you'd still have some fun outliers. (like a sub 250fps ball and a 310 ball)

Goatboy:
You could essentially have spread shot from contra or something :-) but with predictable results instead of the cone of paint that's typical of shooting knuckeballs. now... the question is, will the drafting effects be enough to overcome the spin? It would take testing to find out.

[cockerpunk]

Cockerpunki:
First, i'm not a statistician. I know enough to get by, and I can understand datasets.

Just so our terms are right here. when I say +-5fps, I'm talking a 10fps range. +-2.5fps, would be a 5fps range. I've seen guns that shot within the same three digits for appreciably long strings. I figure it's not "luck" anymore when you're on shot 10 or 12. I have seen guns that shot the same fps 3 times in a row.

I'm also not about to say these are typical results. I've had experiences where the paint looked more like dice than balls, and to get down to a 20fps was hard, and you'd still have some fun outliers. (like a sub 250fps ball and a 310 ball)

i know what you mean when you give out intervals.

over a string of 20 shots, the most consistent i have ever seen a gun shoot is a Standard Divation of 1.75 FPS.

that gives you a confidence interval at 90% (means 90% of all shots fired are within that range) - of about +/- 6 FPS. the only way we could get that was with a serious underbore of at least .004 and shooting at a near perfect interval.

otherwise, i have shot it all, driods, mags, AKAs, angels, what have you, but getting +/- 5 fps out of a gun is damn amazing. most guns (yes even the high ends) are in the +/- 10 or more FPS range under operational conditions.




if you think otherwise, just try it, you will be shocked. just shoot a 20 shot string and record each FPS reading. its really quite astounding. its really quite an eye opener.

[Beemer]

error point detection is gonna be your biggest problem with active velocity control. esp with such a large standard deviation in your shot FPS. +/- 5 FPS is total over any length or percentage of shots. even high end guns with a Confidence interval of 90 percent are gonna only be consistent within +/- 10 or 13 fps.

I fixed it, please dont SWEAR ******, thankyou.

Plus, minus ten to thirteen you sure. For a HIGH END.

What if you fix the variables. Size and weight of ball and bore of barrel. Still got some First Strike rounds? Did you do a weigh out on all you had?? Can you say perfect circle, as has been mentioned? What is the most consistant gun out there now and at what ROF?

So you have the gun but I have to use YOUR BALLS. AS long as EVERY shot IS Three Hundred feet Per second, sign me up.