So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[snoopay700]

i keep a couple of mech cockers on hand whenever i get the urge.

sometimes though, you just want your damn gun to work so you can freakin play the game.

Yeah that's why i want to get a few cockers. Luckily i've been lucky enough to only have my gun go down a few times in the 5 years i've been playing. One of those times that i actually remember was caused by the power tube tip being loose and letting the power tube o-ring go too far forward.

I agree with nerobro, a gun like that would be hard to market, that's why i'm not 100% sure i can market my gun i'm designing successfully. For a while now i've been thinking about implementing a few different features into the marker that i would love to have, but many other people would likely hate. One of the said features is a chronograph on the gun, it would make for a safer gun because it would make it so that people couldn't set their guns into the goggle busting range.

Oh, and psi, there isn't a ton that we can do to increase accuracy or range. The first strike does it well but that can't be dumped into a hopper and is expensive. If you want to increase accuracy and range look at the projectile rather than the gun.

[vf-xx]

not to long if you are in the MilSim mind set this is a walk in the park fit for an AK-47, M-15 and anything larger military type rifle

Hrm. Liquid CO2 Bullpup design....

[Dend78]

Hrm. Liquid CO2 Bullpup design....

wow i typed M-15

i dunno about the liquid CO2 part but i like the bullpup idea

[nerobro]

something tells me a lot of the length of that injector can be cut off. So i'm not so worried about that. They're designed with length in mind. Lots of length. they need to have the injector assembly reach down between camshafts, past valves, and intakes, and through the cylinder head. that's DEEP. I'd be apt to guess that the tips could lose 2" and the tails could lose 2" too. Their current design has fluid going down the sides and into the injector pintle. We could be happy with fluid input that's near the injector, making the device slimmer too.

We need to talk to the inejctor mfgs. I don't see this being something we can whip up without an electronics fab.

I wonder if the peizo stack returns power back to the system as the pile collapses. I'd bet it does.... Scary as 150v sounds, generating 150v off a small battery pack isn't a big deal, and I think peizo is pretty highly resistive, meaning a little current at high voltage will get us the motion we need.

I really want to do this.

[snoopay700]

Hrm. Liquid CO2 Bullpup design....

That would make it even longer, unless you put the back of the valve right at the back of the stock.

[vf-xx]

That would make it even longer, unless you put the back of the valve right at the back of the stock.

That's what I was thinking.

I don't know that would make it even longer really.

I figure, for the first proof of concept design, you're best off using off the shelf parts if possible. Make it work, and prove it to people before you go all out building a bunch of custom stuff.

[nerobro]

Okey, we're at the point where we should just "do it." mag breach, manually cycle the bolt, a rubber stopper and the injector placed in the back of the mag body? We'd need a pic or avr setup to fire with an incresing pulsewidth, and give us some kind of feedback.

Nothing to hard. but first.. we need an injector. is the powerstroke peizo? that could be easier to find than the gas injectors I was pondering.

[oldironmudder]

Nerobro, are you willing to drop $800 on ONE injector? Cause thats what one fella paid for one of those in the picture. I think it would be easier to make the valve & use what off the shelf parts you can to get a very rough draft prototype. Either that or send me some money & I will pull an injector out of the first 6.4 I run into.

[turbo chicken]

a whole lot to take in...

ill take fule trim as an example for a modern computer controlled engine

over time stuff wears, filters get clogged, stuff gets dirty and your engine performs differently

so your fuel trim needs (lets call this idle adjustment) to be adjusted ... but this is done over time after feedback from lots of sensors.

lets say you replace the filters, rebuild, or clean (make a change to the configuration) of your electronic controlled engine.

you drive it and the compouter basically decides... the car needs this much fuel to run efficiently and adjust accordingly based on the feedback from all the sensors...


now... imagine adjustments being made after so many cycles or blank and blank feedback has been recieved from the many sensors on the gun ... this would handle any electronic "tuning" taht you wanted... but would require the user to set the parameters taht they want the gun to shoot at.

and further... what Tom was getting at... couldn't you just have some kind of electronic controlled regulator... behind your "injector" that pulses to shoot the ball. So a 2 stage process.

-computer will know that at a psi of X at a pulse of Y = Z fps

im thinking a mag with no dump chamber... but a super awesome reg that will regulate (electronically adjusted) but still allow the volume of air needed to get the fps you need ...

of course you'd need some kind of purge valve to switch from super awesome loud and efficient to super quiet sucky efficiency...

the problem with the current mag setup is that the dump chamber is constantly the same zise... thus necessitating a specific range of PSI to get the FPS you desire...

now a chanber whose size can change on the fly ... would also work but add a level of more sensors and feedback needed before the board decides to fire...

looks like what previous poster have said... 2 stages ... electronically regulate psi stright into something that will electronically controll flow...

too friggin cool... how is that opensource pbgun thing doing?

and yes i made this post without reading everyone elses ...

[nerobro]

Nerobro, are you willing to drop $800 on ONE injector? Cause thats what one fella paid for one of those in the picture. I think it would be easier to make the valve & use what off the shelf parts you can to get a very rough draft prototype. Either that or send me some money & I will pull an injector out of the first 6.4 I run into.

I thought using the inejctor WAS an off the helf solution. cobbling togother our own rig would be the custom route ;-)

I was looking at ebay, seems to be <200 for a powerstroke injector. But I can't be sure they're the peizo kind.

To be really silly, you could advertize the gun with some "crystal" refrences and not be kidding. Call it something like the "power crystal" which enables electronic control of the valve body.

Do you work somewhere that you could get your hands on diesel injectors? If that's the case, i'm completely willing to work with you on that.

[oldironmudder]

I thought using the inejctor WAS an off the helf solution. cobbling togother our own rig would be the custom route ;-)

I was looking at ebay, seems to be <200 for a powerstroke injector. But I can't be sure they're the peizo kind.

To be really silly, you could advertize the gun with some "crystal" refrences and not be kidding. Call it something like the "power crystal" which enables electronic control of the valve body.

Do you work somewhere that you could get your hands on diesel injectors? If that's the case, i'm completely willing to work with you on that.

The joke about me getting an injector was a big joke & im not going to jail over this, to much to be separated from.

The 6.4L uses the piezo & the older 7.3L PS uses a HUEI. It involves oil from a high pressure pump. I dont recall what the 6.0Ls use, 6.0 is between 7.3 & 6.4 in age plus I never liked them so I know less about the 6.0.

I went to college for Diesel & my last job was a shop foreman/mechanic with class 8 trucks.

IDEA.... gotta go dig out my books.

I could try to make a few calls & find an injector but the price will probably still be up there since the 6.4 is still new.

[oldironmudder]

Just searched ebay. Damn near everything is for a 7.3 & a few 6.0 injectors.

[drg]

the only reason i can think of that anyone wouldn't attempt to have more electronic control on there guns is that the current people writing the code are not talented enough to control those types of things. or they do not realize the goal in and of itself.

More like the goal is being met and these suggestions are reinventions of the goal which are frankly not based on the reality of the sport today. What the sport asks is a gun that operates efficiently and consistently; we are currently meeting that need. There is only so much further complication left to do, and then you have to ask yourself, why would you do it?

What would additional sensors do in a paintball gun? Is measuring velocity on-gun that much of an important goal that it justifies the placing of sensors and windows into the barrel and creating that many more points of possible failure? What would you do with the feedback?

With all this talk of injectors, it would be instructive to realize why injectors are used in cars in the first place -- for consistent and controllable atomization of fuel. With a combustion engine you are dealing with a whole different ball of wax compared to a paintball gun -- you are concerned with the fuel-air emulsion, which is a complete non-issue in paintball. With paintball, all you need is consistent metering and good flow; that can be achieved even mechanically just as well as electronically.

If AGD wanted to come back on the scene a good place to start might be re-engineering the pump mag.

[tasker89]

Frankly if AGD wanted to come back on the scene a good place to start would be re-engineering the pump mag.

Possibly built around a tiny all aluminum classic valve ???

[vf-xx]

Hrm. Just thought of a good use for an on gun chrony:

Wouldn't take too much more to hook it up to a transmitter of some sort (bluetooth, RFID, wifi) and have chrony speeds instantly reported to judges and/or refs. That has some interesting possibilities.

Eh, what's wrong with Pipe dreams?

Besides while we 'might' be meeting all the use needs currently, companies have to keep selling stuff to stay in business. If you build something that performs substantially similar or only marginally better, but in a vastly different way you can really market that.

Besides, from an engineering perspective, I can see the appeal of this method.