So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[Newt]

Care to give us some hints here?

Yamaha uses a system where a transparent to opaque greyscale tab is attached to moving parts on the Disklavier player acoustic piano systems. A laser eye is used to record how fast it moves from trans to opaq, so the CPU always knows how fast each mechanical part is moving and where it is. Those parts are easily accelerated to 300 fps as quickly as a paintball would be.

Very cool.

In a paintball application, you could have a detent function something like this, maybe similar to Tippmann's "flap". The system measures the speed the ball leaves the breech, throws how much gas was applied to the shot (for acceleration on the ball after the detent), runs that through a simple equation, and gets the velocity.

Just a theory.

[Newt]

Addressing the ZOMG IS IT ETHICAL discussion:

I don't think AGD would have posted this if the issue weren't already considered, addressed, and a way to design the system so it won't be an issue was decided on. At all. Few care more about the sport and have more respect in the paintball community.

The design would not even sell if this were not fixed. Can we continue the discussion assuming this is the case?

[Newt]

Got another theory. This one's probably more likely:

Per AGD's specs, we don't have crazy trash strapped to the barrel, eyes (which my prior theory was dangerously close to), or similar garbage. So your injector/bolt/paint loading mechanism coming from behind the paintball has flowports around a laser sensor. It shines on the paintball and takes (what three, two if it's using the "in breach" measurement as zero?) good range measurements over the time the ball would take to leave the barrel and get a maybe a couple inches from the muzzle. Data goes to the board, averaged, and bam, we know velocity.

No chance of shining your friend in the eye and blinding him, the laser is pointed directly at the ball. It's probably infrared anyway, so no worries there.

The neatest part of the whole "dynamic velocity measurement" is that it can display the actual velocity on the fly. Makes it real easy for refs or gun techs.

Again, just a theory.

[pepper]

Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

Innovation is not dead. I think the concept of innovation is being reborn and handed out to the masses. Think about how many individuals have figured out how to make a part or a marker, and have had it made in mass quantities and sold on paintball forums world wide. You need to broaden your vision again sir, look beyond boxed markers at the retail stores.. look for the innovators on this forum. Combine their talents into a think tank and build a new marker.

Back in the day you had to figure out what tools to use to blaze that new trail, today is no different. Good Ideas and Bad Ideas lead to Better ideas.
The corporate mind set is what almost killed innovation. When $$ or the voting board is put first, Oops and mistakes are few and far between. There's no room left for chance. You have to search for the chance takers, the people that say why not.

[nerobro]

Cheating is a matter of the player. If they are determiend enough, any gun can be made to cheat. Via software, new boards, or just some monkey with a wrench.

Software for this would be easy. Go with TK's plan, fire over the chrono till it hits the right velocity. Make sure the chono setup/procedure takes at least 30 seconds. That means if a player wants to mess with his velocity during a game, he's down for at least 30 seconds, if not more.

The software should have static tables for pressure/velocity relations. Or at least it should not be user tunable. Perhaps there should be three tables? CO2, Liquid CO2, HPA/N2. To account for the different masses of the air used. Again, that's a setting that should take a long time to set. Or... even could be set via the velocity setup procedure. The differences in gas mass should need radically different valve dwells ;-)

I'm still stuck on the "lets prove that this works" thing.

Has anyone seen what the current draw is on one of the peizo injectors? Maybe it's time I write an e-mail or make a couple phone calls to the mfgs. Something tells me they'd be at least moderately friendly to this sort of thing.

[nerobro]

called bosch today, got the phone numbers to their R&D department. ;-) "I'm looking for the engineering specs for the peizo injectors. Power requirements, etc. We are looking to do high pressure air injection and your product seemed to be the closest thing to comercial soltuion to this."

[Newt]

...aaand?

[athomas]

There are ways to control this. Right now we use a metered amount of regulated air to achieve our desired velocity. Even with limitations of mechanical devices, most guns are pretty darned accurate in their consistency. Essentially, Tom is suggesting the same metering concept only not using regulated air or a preset amount. If you allow the air to flow at available pressure for a calculated amount of time it contains an amount of energy. If the pressure goes down, the time needs to go up to achieve the same amount of energy as previously used. The valve would have a calibration curve. You would set the velocity by a calibration number as well so that the gun knows its starting condition. I'm pretty sure that is where Tom's idea of hitting a calibration button and firing over a chrono until the proper speed is coming from.

[Lohman446]

Come on, cheating is not new to cheater boards. I can distinctly remember holding my entire set-up upside down in order to get some liquid into the marker and achieve a shot to reach across distances it should not have.

[nerobro]

There are ways to control this. Right now we use a metered amount of regulated air to achieve our desired velocity. Even with limitations of mechanical devices, most guns are pretty darned accurate in their consistency. Essentially, Tom is suggesting the same metering concept only not using regulated air or a preset amount. If you allow the air to flow at available pressure for a calculated amount of time it contains an amount of energy. If the pressure goes down, the time needs to go up to achieve the same amount of energy as previously used. The valve would have a calibration curve. You would set the velocity by a calibration number as well so that the gun knows its starting condition. I'm pretty sure that is where Tom's idea of hitting a calibration button and firing over a chrono until the proper speed is coming from.

The curve wouldn't need to be re-calibrated. That's something that would be constant.

The gun knows how much pressure it's getting. when you set the velocity, it then knows what duration at what pressure makes the ball go the velocity you want. It would also have a chart that would allow it to lookup the proper valve duration for other pressures. That wouldn't change. :-)

So... I got a call back from bosch. Wrong freaking department. I left another voicemail with the diesel fuel systems.

[vf-xx]

The curve wouldn't need to be re-calibrated. That's something that would be constant.

The gun knows how much pressure it's getting. when you set the velocity, it then knows what duration at what pressure makes the ball go the velocity you want. It would also have a chart that would allow it to lookup the proper valve duration for other pressures. That wouldn't change. :-)

So... I got a call back from bosch. Wrong freaking department. I left another voicemail with the diesel fuel systems.

No no, liquid CO2 runs into some interesting issues. I don't know how it' would know if it's getting gas or liquid CO2.

(If it's air only, well that's something else)

[nerobro]

No no, liquid CO2 runs into some interesting issues. I don't know how it' would know if it's getting gas or liquid CO2.

(If it's air only, well that's something else)

Well, if we were to change air systems, we'd need to use a different curve. when I suggested co2, tha twas because we'd be injecting a liquid with a liquid injector. forcing liquid to the valve isn't "that" hard.

[Lohman446]

http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...highlight=fuel

This is some old discussion in regards to some of the issues that may occur. Done with a bit less enthusiasm but it does bring up some points that will have to be addressed

[Lohman446]

While we are discussing this "ultimate gun". Some of us recall the design ideas on the second generation warp feed. Do your thoughts include its use?

[Sumthinwicked]

you suck

corey s