So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[vf-xx]

You'd still need a LPR and a ram to actuate the bolt. I don't see that as a huge issue . The bolt could be a very, very small thing. I already have a layout in mind... and I think that using modern casting techniques this could be a very, very cheap gun to mfg. (provided the only special feature we're looking at is the use of an injector instead of regulators and metering devices)

And I think I may have figured out a way around needing a LPR and second solinoid...

Why would you need a ram to actuate the bolt? Why not just go blow forward like the Mag?

[tasker89]

Is it even still "accepted" (if it ever was) that "HP" is more efficient than "LP"? When I think of the most efficient markers, not a single one is "HP." Reply With Quote

Once "LP" became canon I don't think anyone even tried to go the other direction. Perhaps Tom would like to weigh in on this?

[Lohman446]

To the "it can't be done because we don't have this" such as consistant paintballs (though it has been pointed out we do have them).

Remember the Automag came out and was embraced before we had a good power source for it.

[nerobro]

To the "it can't be done because we don't have this" such as consistant paintballs (though it has been pointed out we do have them).

Remember the Automag came out and was embraced before we had a good power source for it.

I don't think anything here has been a "can't." There's been a couple "not a good plan" or "insanely hard to implement" ideas. Anything that's been insanely hard to implment is stuff that would make good study material anyway. Even if it's a poor idea to have ongun.

If I only had a lathe.....

[Chronobreak]

Tom,

I have thought about this for a bit now. Why do we need all these do dads? is it really going to make the game better? Is it going to mean a simple elegant design like the classic mag where it is idiot proof and there is nothing that needs to be adjusted or any unnecessary things that can go wrong? A gun that anyone can pick up and go shoot without having any prior knowledge of the inner workings, adjustments, settings and things that just seem to cause problems for so many users of current equipment. If it cant do all that i feel its not even worth discussing.

I got off the phone with an old friend of yours, you might know him, his name is Tim Schloss.
He recommends that you make a nice vertical feed, double triggered classic mag with a modern style at a price point that fits its quality and capabilities.

so Tom, lets get back to the basics and stop messing around.

[nerobro]

This touches on a big advantage of electronic guns. They don't need to be made anywhere near as accurately as mechanical guns. an Ion is more or less just a drilled tube with a barrel on the front.

With the mag you had several, stacked, critical tolerances. The valve body fit inside the body, the body fit to the rail. The on/off height within the body... and this was reflected in different length on/offs.

That's actually a "failure" of the e-mag. It was still dependant on all the tight tolerances of the mag. (also it's advantage, as it had a manual mode if the gun failed)

Say this design ends up blowforward, that means you have a tube, that you screw a barrel on the end of... and that's it. You hook up two wires to the back of the valve body and an air source and you're done.

The injector design could be DEAD cheap to make. Excepting the cost of hte injector itself, which I think runs ~100. In fact, this sort of design leads itself to being installed in all sorts of bodies. Anything from a pistol to a bullpup to a turret. :-)

Something tells me the injector design would be cheaper than making a mag.

[snoopay700]

that's pretty funny, i compare cars and paintball markers all the time.
spyders are civics, e-frames are turbochargers, solenoids and electronics are superchargers, angels are lambos, egos are ferraris, mags are old school muscle cars

Gah no, tippmanns maybe, but mags handle much better than muscle cars do.

I think of them more like old Porches, or maybe Lotuses because it was a smaller company making a great product, although the whole crapload of engineering going into the gun goes along with Porsche.

As for the whole chrono barrel thing, i touched on that, it would have to be at the end of the barrel and the shroud it's in could not be the same size as the bore, it would have to be larger. The way a gun operates does not affect how it is accelerated. For a given barrel length, whether it be low pressure or high pressure, the ball should still be accelerated at the same rate since it's on a given distance. That is unless i'm thinking about it wrong, but i'm fairly certain that that is true.

[AGD]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

[Ratt]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

...I don't buy it.

[tasker89]

Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

One could argue that most of what is pitched by the industry as "innovative" and "ground breaking" is nothing more than refinement of established technology. It seems to me that the only remaining paradigm shifting opportunities rest in the projectile itself and feed mechanisms. The tech is already out there...but it hasn't been widely adopted.

At what point do the guns become a bit Rube Goldbergish to be slinging little malformed blobs of goop and gelatin?

[LK-13]

Tom, thanks for giving us some hope that something may one day jump to mind and may in fact lead to a build.

the only thing i have issue with is the blasted electronics needed for something like this.

"the more you over rout the plumbing the easier it is to stop up a drain..."
Montgomery Scot Chief Engineer USS Enterprise.

I refuse to accept that the limits of mechanical systems have been reached given the rules, guidelines and parameters of paintball.

easy to service/maintain/repair built for longevity and versatility.

and compatible with both co2 and hpa.

[druid]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that.

China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that tone ::shrugs:: but it seems a bit snide for the fact you are asking for "our opinions" and this ^^ is the type of response we get [??]

That being said and with all due respect...

Then I hope your governmental contracts continue to fill your belly for you. This economy might be good for some but it's horrible for the rest of us and taking "the hard line" isn't going to sell many markers until it clears up [if it even does].

There's a big difference between "making it cheap" and "making it affordable." I don't believe I've seen anyone suggest outsourcing to China...although I might have missed that and I completely agree that you shouldn't do it. However there are alternatives to manufacturing processes and techniques that are just as good as another. Handgun manufacturers use Titanium wrapped around steel sleeves. I hardly call that "cheap manufacturing" and they aren't that dissimilar in cost to an all-steel firearm.

I don't think we are in the "twilight years" and there is ALWAYS room for improvement...but the idea is to make what the customer base wants...not necessarily what the designers want. What do the customers want Tom? I believe we've made that abundantly clear....

[snoopay700]

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that tone ::shrugs:: but it seems a bit snide for the fact you are asking for "our opinions" and this ^^ is the type of response we get [??]

That being said and with all due respect...

Then I hope your governmental contracts continue to fill your belly for you. This economy might be good for some but it's horrible for the rest of us and taking "the hard line" isn't going to sell many markers until it clears up [if it even does].

There's a big difference between "making it cheap" and "making it affordable." I don't believe I've seen anyone suggest outsourcing to China...although I might have missed that and I completely agree that you shouldn't do it. However there are alternatives to manufacturing processes and techniques that are just as good as another. Handgun manufacturers use Titanium wrapped around steel sleeves. I hardly call that "cheap manufacturing" and they aren't that dissimilar in cost to an all-steel firearm.

I don't think we are in the "twilight years" and there is ALWAYS room for improvement...but the idea is to make what the customer base wants...not necessarily what the designers want. What do the customers want Tom? I believe we've made that abundantly clear....

The problem is that Tom is much like other people who like designing things, especially now that he's not actively in the business and doesn't need to think about what the consumer wants.

He is thinking of a design he would want to use, something incredible, rather than something that will appeal to the masses. Tom looks at a problem and wants to fix it. I'm much the same way with the marker i'm designing, i'm designing it for me, and if i can sell it and people like it then all the better. I mainly just want a paintball gun i would want to use and has all of the features i want than make something that would sell easily.

[Newt]

Last I checked, national unemployment was almost 10%. Higher in some states. I know nobody wants to say the "D" word, but if you go back and look at the numbers from the late 1920's and early 30's, you might not be surprised a luxury sport like paintball is reverting back to pump.

Honestly, I'm very pessimistic about how soon the economic sunshine is going to peek over the horizon, but I am optimistic that the sport will make it through.

[Dend78]

you are correct Newt there are a lot of pumpers but there are also a lot of woodsballers. its cheaper and eaiser to go out and play in your buddies woods than it is to pay a field fee, paint fee, air and any other fee that the field has...im not slamming on the field owners cause hey you gotta make a buck or its not worth paying the insurance to keep it open.

i believe what Tom is saying with that comment is that rather than revert back to the basics and old technology why not bring something new. which i totally understand the old stuff works great and the new stuff works great but the new stuff this year looks alot like the new stuff from last year and the year before that and so on. it all has the same basic function only the programing on the boards changed but nothing truly innovative has really hit the table. take for instance the mag and the cocker when those hit the market you were shooting a mag or a cocker anything else was a toy pretty much....then out came an Angel and wow look what happened to the sport once electronics hit.

Tom is also correct in saying you cant make something worth the money here anymore, i mean look we are spending 200+ for body's for our mags thats just a body then you gotta get a rail which hey nice body better have a nice rail milled for that there is extra added cost. Basically if you want a cheap marker that can fling paint consistently go buy and ion, but if you want something that is built to last and its made here in America there is a price tag that comes with it.

What Tom is talking about here is a big step ahead of what we already have especially if it can be made to work as well as he said. will it shed new light on the sport who knows but it will truly be something new which we really haven't seen in this sport for a while.