PTP Fascination

[JKR]

One of the things that sets current AGD users aside is that we play with a dead platform - we appreciate the merits of a design that has been effectively left behind by the industry. We are not the "typical customer" or we'd be playing with newer common designs or products to the exclusion of Automags, but we see merit in a design or product that meets our needs as customers but not the needs of the greater paintball market. Peoples enjoyment, use and collecting of PTPs older products are a microcosm of exactly what drives people to AGDs older products now.

Well said!

[GoatBoy]

I'm taking my time with this thread, and rest assured all for the less than notable points you guys covered will be adressed, just not in one sitting.

You guys should read this Google+ post, including the comments:

https://plus.google.com/+AndreasSchou/posts/WbRHrsn45JT

You know you've made a good product when over 20 years later an attack on its merits has devolved into a debate over the pin you used to retain the sear.

Only discussing the sear because it's being touted as... what was the word... revolutionary? Was that the word? Is anyone going to amend that?

I dug up a classic sear+pin and measured the pin.

First thing I did was emit a few expletives regarding customary units.

And then I thought... hrm. 3/16" sounds kind of familiar.

Dug into a drawer for some old crap that I was going to use for PC modding but never got around to.



Looks pretty goofy, but functionally... seemed to come out right. Shaft was taken from an old CDROM drive.

The problem is that there's no rail out there that supports this configuration. So I had to make one. But I can't print a full rail. I can only print... part of one.



That looks REALLY goofy. It's just barely, barely enough to hold the gun together; I'm relying more on the grip frame to keep things together.

The print didn't even come out right; the ends lifted off the bed so it's kind of distorted, and I should adjust for some print issues. (Sear holes came out way too large, but that's OK because the sear's holding onto the sear pin now.)



Yep.

As badly out of spec as that rail was (not to mention my amateur rivet work), it actually worked just fine. I had a small leak out the front at rest because it's an LX bolt and I would need to adjust the shims for this configuration; I could kind of wiggle things and make the leak go away.

Couple of things:

1. Press fit classic sear pin appears to work just fine.
2. I know mags are renown for intolerance of poor tolerances, but if I can make something like this which actually works... imagine what kind of colossal, industrial grade f-up is actually necessary to produce a failure. Like I said, you can't do superior things and produce worse results..

I mean, you can, but don't expect people to celebrate it.

No, that's flawed logic. There are many reasons why a company can fail to adopt something new; they may lack the financial or manufacturing means, lack the legal right to use the technology, choose not to include a feature that will cost more to produce and slim an already narrow margin, or force a price increase that takes a product outside of its target market. Some manufacturers try to pursue different solutions to the same problem new features address, while others don't think it's a problem at all (even if their customers do) - case in point,

So it's OK to say that adoption of something is absolutely "proof in the pudding", but lack of adoption means nothing? That is extremely convenient.

The rest of this is, again, just deferring to history and a couple of other psychological tells which I can link later.

The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?

I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.

I wasn't just talking about the MM2K9, it extends to the other products as well. Where was that one thread where PTP just gave up and replaced a customers marker with an emag?

Even if ithe 2k9 wasn't PTPs design, they should have been the gatekeepers. They're supposed to be the exalted experts with whatever number of years of historical experience and the glory of paintball generations past and the majesty of anodizing blah blah blah blah. I

[GoatBoy]

Today, let's talk about PTP detents.

Let's start off with the obligatory quote(s) to clarify that I'm responding to statements already made.

and put a superior detent on automags

The PTP detent is kind of this big clunky thing that is really kind of overkill and underkill at the same time. A detent doesn't really need to be that large or that invasive to work, and you still only get 1 detent when I'm kind of convinced that 2 opposing ones is a better setup.

And if your "play style" is such that you take body hits that literally require sear removal to clean*, then you're gonna hate a detent that cuts a relatively gaping slot in your body that leads directly into your breech for no good reason, because you WILL be taking hits there, and they WILL foul your shots directly, unlike paint between the body/rail which won't affect performance for the most part. And since these bodies aren't twist lock, that means if you really want to clean it all out, you have to unscrew the barrel (assuming the barrel is even removable in the first place). So you can't possibly like this detent if you're really that "xtreme", particularly considering you can do as good or better with smaller, smarter, less obnoxious designs. So if you thought cleaning paint out from the sear was annoying, "You're gonna hate Fridays".

Even the cocker detent design is superior to this PTP detent, which is why PTP switched to it in the newest, most modern iteration -- the 6th generation MM 2K9. The proof is in the pudding.**

Honestly, it looks like the kind of big external clunky thing that... I would do. (And have done.)

Except I have no access to manufacturing or design resources.

I'm pretty sure celebrated professionals with full access to production resources should be able to do better. You can't be better but do worse.

It's not actually that terrible, but a blown up wire nubbin isn't exactly revolutionary either.


* This is not actually true.

** This is a logical fallacy. So don't bother providing any counter arguments to this one because I already know it's false. See, I can do it too. Except when I do it, I'm honest about it, and do it purposely in the hopes it is a teachable moment. Not holding my breath.

[Frizzle Fry]

Goatboy, let it go. What made you decide you needed to revive this thread? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something? Maybe seek "someone" out to talk about all this anger you feel; it can be really helpful or so I'm told. There are some medications available... they might help even you out some.



The PTP detent is almost 25 years old and was designed to compete with wire detentes and foam fingers. It did a better job than those designs - nuff said. At the time when it was released 'cocker detents didn't exist on cockers. "Cocker Detents" from WGP were no detent at all, and when custom shops added threaded detents, they often screwed up the placement which anyone who owned a proshop cocker in the early 90s can tell you. The PTP detent was more forgiving about placement because of how it could be adjusted when installed. This has been discussed to death. It looks clunky? Half of the market looked clunky in the early 90s - I'm not sure I get your point. A couple years earlier the most popular gun on the market was made of brass tubes braised together, and of the two most popular markers out there at the time of the PTP detents release, one barely tolerated co2 (and HPA wasn't around yet) and the other had a "clunky" (to say the least) external recocking cocking system with tiny hoses everywhere.

Yes, they switched to a different design almost 25 years later, 6+ years since the last time they produced a marker, using a design that was created by a non-PTP employee, with a breech system that made screw-ins virtually the only reasonable option. Again, what is your point? Cocker detents were outdated at this time too... Isn't it MUCH more likely that they used this design because the guy who designed the marker used this design? PTPs own design wouldn't fit the rotating breech system, and rubber nubbins would require a retention system which means more parts and more milling - more cost.

The sear argument... c'mon. Can we get a show of hands here? Anyone ever remove their sear when cleaning their markers? Anyone with a classic marker ever find broken paint scuzz between their body and rail? Anyone want a rail with a sear pin you have to use a hammer and punch to remove? For that matter does anyone want a marker that you have to use a hammer and punch to disassemble? I'm sure some people would be OK with that, but most people wouldn't.



I'm thinking of "pulling a GoatBoy" and starting a thread to whine about how much heavier Zenith tube TVs are compared to modern flatscreens. Those huge clunky remotes and some don't even have them, and they take FOREVER to turn on by comparison, and the company screwed everyone over when they sold out to LG. I mean those rabbit ear antennas look like something I'd make in shop class - professional manufacturers should have simply created a fiber optic network the instant that television was created. I made my own TV parts out of plastic using designs that appeal to 1% of 1% of TV watchers and I'm pretty sure that gives me a leg to stand on when arguing about things from the past that I don't understand because I wasn't there.


P.S. to the OP... some of us remember how gung ho you were for the 2K9 and the prospect of a new PTP 'cocker. If the old products (which you owned) are such garbage, why the interest?

[going_home]

P.S. to the OP... some of us remember how gung ho you were for the 2K9 and the prospect of a new PTP 'cocker. If the old products (which you owned) are such garbage, why the interest?

It was my "latest" project.

As soon as the next one was completed it was gone.

My "interest" was short, thus the thread.

[JKR]

So much hate...

Seems spring weather has goatboy out trolling this weekend.

[Nobody]

Not hate, but more of a fascination with something that time has passed by. I personally can understand the historical aspects, but to say that, to me, that something that never really progressed pasted 15 years ago can have real relevance now is wrong.

Yes, the anno guns were special, but i do not see the entire line as special. To me, that is saying a 1968 4 cylinder mustang is as special as Steve McQueen's GT390. Same car but 2 totally different reactions.

[luke]

To me, that is saying a 1968 4 cylinder mustang is as special as Steve McQueen's GT390. Same car but 2 totally different reactions.

FMC didn't put a 4 cylinder in the Mustang until 1974. :)

[blackdeath1k]

I see there relavence just like I see AGD and WGP. And Palmer's at the time. 3 of the 4 were literally creating new prototype designs of markers to progress a "new" sport. PTP was spending money and resources designing stuff to make the existing platforms better....at the time. That doesn't mean that looking back they magically had the best design. But rarely does the first prototype design become the final product. Someone has to show that said product is useful and needed. They did that. In turn more started testing ideas. Look how many flavors of air valves there were before the final L7 valve. At the time though there design of detent was probably the best and most reliably functional. And there AL body brought something to mags that people wanted. Did time pass PTP by before the year 2000? Yes. But that doesn't knock there relavence before. People collect all sorts of things. Whatever floats there boat. Me. I only keep and buy what I plan to use. But that's not the mentality of all.

[JKR]

Not hate, but more of a fascination with something that time has passed by. I personally can understand the historical aspects, but to say that, to me, that something that never really progressed pasted 15 years ago can have real relevance now is wrong.

So...'Mags with X-Valves have no relevance now? Not much difference in Mags now and 15 years ago...

[Nobody]

So...'Mags with X-Valves have no relevance now? Not much difference in Mags now and 15 years ago...

With an Xvalve, people have yet to hit the theoretical limits of the valves and can easily keep up with todays guns. Its not like people have to make them pneumatic nust to get more life out of them. Time has passed by on PTP and they really need to do more and better, IMO to keep up with even AGD(if the rumor is true).

[ultralight]

For me PTP is nostalgia. It's finally being able to own those awesome, god-tier, "tournament" guns that you saw hanging on the wall at your local shop when you were still rocking a splatmaster.

I honestly never cared for the micromags, but the red nights Micrococker will be burned into my brain forever.

[JKR]

Its like chum in the water again...

Someone please lock this thread. I can't read another word about how much my 15-20 yr old PTP 'gun sucks and why my nostalgia and personal preferences are total crap.

[boo]

With an Xvalve, people have yet to hit the theoretical limits of the valves and can easily keep up with todays guns. Its not like people have to make them pneumatic nust to get more life out of them. Time has passed by on PTP and they really need to do more and better, IMO to keep up with even AGD(if the rumor is true).

Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?

[Nobody]

Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?

Did you read the last line? Plus, there are people out there that are taking TK's work and improving on it. When TK was at Tunaball, he was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash was able to fit the Xmod onto the stock board. Not to mention the various pneumags. But what do i know?