PTP Fascination

[vintage]

you touched a nerve on this one Allen.

[going_home]

you touched a nerve on this one Allen.

Just fun and informative .
Not hate, just no love , zero .

I dont see any hate from the detractors.

Where I see it coming from is some of the defenders.

After all this I personally dont see a reason to collect PTP stuff.

I guess after all though people do collect salt and pepper shakers, so......

To modify Gordons saying just a bit, collectors gonna collect.........

[Spider-TW]

I dont see any hate from the detractors.

Where I see it coming from is some of the defenders.

After all this I personally dont see a reason to collect PTP stuff.

I guess after all though people do collect salt and pepper shakers, so......

To modify Gordons saying just a bit, collectors gonna collect.........

Right? "Reason to collect"? No such thing.

[GoatBoy]

The Micromag offered a solution for all of the Automag's downsides: lighter aluminum body w/ integrated rail, cocker threads, improved detents.
Add to that the finest factory ano options ever offered on any gun.

I own one black Micromag and have zero issues with it. Why did I want it to begin with? Compact, lightweight body with interchangeable barrels with a more old school cool factor that some run of the mill ULE body.

Put powerfeeds on Autocockers, VM68s and M98s.

[GoatBoy]

I should probably quote at least one instance of the thing I'm referencing lest you think I'm being unfair.

the first threaded sear pin

Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

Because it fixes a problem caused by making the mag unibody?

There are a number of other ways to solve this problem.

For example, a press fit axle. Just like on the trigger frames. Works for the trigger frames, works for the sear.

I guess a press fit pin might not work so well if you can't keep tolerances.

Wait what would mess with tolerances? Perhaps... the anno process?

Anyways, there are a couple of other options besides press-fit pins, but it seems the options chosen by PTP happen to be the most complicated (threading/grip wings/other weirdness).

[Frizzle Fry]

I should probably quote at least one instance of the thing I'm referencing lest you think I'm being unfair.



Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

Because it fixes a problem caused by making the mag unibody?

There are a number of other ways to solve this problem.

For example, a press fit axle. Just like on the trigger frames. Works for the trigger frames, works for the sear.

I guess a press fit pin might not work so well if you can't keep tolerances.

Wait what would mess with tolerances? Perhaps... the anno process?

Anyways, there are a couple of other options besides press-fit pins, but it seems the options chosen by PTP happen to be the most complicated (threading/grip wings/other weirdness).

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but...

A press fit axle? Like a rolled pin, or a flanged pin that you'd have to use a hammer and a pin punch to install or remove? Sounds inconvenient.

The purpose of a threaded pin is simple; to make fieldstripping the market more simple. A threaded sear axle is easier on the user than one that needs to be dropped into place and balanced to assemble, and can fall out when disassembling the marker (like the one in Classic and Minimags, and early Micromags; I know I've lost a few in my time). I'd assume that's why AGD adopted the threaded sear axle as the standard for the RT, RT Pro, Emag and Xmag - I.E. all of their production markers developed after the Micromag. I'd call that an advancement- the proof is in the pudding.

As for winged frames, there are reason for their development beyond sear pin retention in early Micromags. You'll notice that DYE and 32* frames, neither of which were manufactured by PTP/Benchmark, have wings as well - was this to fill the niche market of Micromag users? No, it's because 45 frames are wider than cast aluminum or composite AGD euroframes. If you look at one of your classic rails, you'll see that there are two angled channels on either side of the bottom where these wings slide in - if you use a flattop 45 frame with these rails, the frame will overhang on either side and leave a very apparent gap. In fact, the first PTP Micromags with threaded sear pins also used winged frames. It wasn't until the RT was released in '96 that flat top 45 frames were developed, and Micromags didn't use them until the 2K model.

These wings and channels are more than cosmetic - they also ensure that the rear frame hole doesn't twist out of alignment when you remove the valve without completely disassembling the marker. This is more important with Micromags and Classics using ULE bodies, which don't have a barrel twistlock assembly to help keep the frame aligned, but it can cause an issue with any marker using a classic rail or classic rail specs. AGDs solution to this problem was a "rail bushing", which like an unfixed sear axle, can simply fall out when stripping the marker. You'll note that AGD released their first wider frame, the Zgrip, in two configurations; with and without wings - the former for Classics and the latter for RTs. When the Intelliframe and Yframe were released they were only made as flat tops, because they were intended for use with RT spec rails which don't accept winged frames.

I think you're grasping at straws, but I don't blame you... Again, and I can't stress this enough, if you weren't there playing at the time, your views on many or most of these things are bound to be colored by a lack of history and the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I don't mean that as a dig, just a statement on why someone who started playing well after these developments had become commonplace, or outlived their usefulness or popularity.

[luke]

Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?

I believe it's an advancement because it maintains better geometry between the bolt, sear and on/off. I've never really investigated the performance differences but there seems but be much less play with the 1/8" threaded pin design. Some of that has to do with the bushing surface being wider than the am sear without the bushing. Having said that though, I believe that the bushing was an AGD innovation.

[Frizzle Fry]

I had a Micromag with a threaded sear axle in 96, if it was AGDs doing it was done concurrently.

[kutter]

I never mentioned another marker, and as for weight, when the Micro was released it was lighter than SS mags, now, not so much, but that is progress. By today's standards the Micro is not really anything special except as a classic marker. I get that, still like them, so still use it. As for the powerfeeds, while I would prefer if someone would mill an aluminum vert feed to replace my powerfeed adapter, in the mean time I bought one of the 3D printed ones, have not used it yet but it seems like it will work just fine.

[luke]

I had a Micromag with a threaded sear axle in 96, if it was AGDs doing it was done concurrently.

PTP didn't use the axle bushing though.

[Frizzle Fry]

PTP didn't use the axle bushing though.

Correct, they used a threaded pin which was as wide as the classic sear hole, and continued to use classic-spec sears, even on the MicroEmag. My point was more that they were offering threaded Micromags on the Gen3 body in 96 which was when the RT (the first AGD product with a threaded sear) was released, and that they may have been offering it earlier even - tough to say. I bought an RT around launch, and already owned a Micromag with a threaded sear pin.

[GoatBoy]

I'd assume that's why AGD adopted the threaded sear axle as the standard for the RT, RT Pro, Emag and Xmag - I.E. all of their production markers developed after the Micromag. I'd call that an advancement- the proof is in the pudding.

I believe it's an advancement because it maintains better geometry between the bolt, sear and on/off. I've never really investigated the performance differences but there seems but be much less play with the 1/8" threaded pin design. Some of that has to do with the bushing surface being wider than the am sear without the bushing. Having said that though, I believe that the bushing was an AGD innovation.

[going_home]

I'm just going to put this right here.....

[MAGgot]

You know you've made a good product when over 20 years later an attack on its merits has devolved into a debate over the pin you used to retain the sear.

[Frizzle Fry]

Be careful with this. If adoption makes right, then lack of adoption might mean wrong. You’re better off not using reasoning like this, lest it be used against you.

No, that's flawed logic. There are many reasons why a company can fail to adopt something new; they may lack the financial or manufacturing means, lack the legal right to use the technology, choose not to include a feature that will cost more to produce and slim an already narrow margin, or force a price increase that takes a product outside of its target market. Some manufacturers try to pursue different solutions to the same problem new features address, while others don't think it's a problem at all (even if their customers do) - case in point, Budd Orr was the last person to consider putting detent on his marker design; he didn't feel they were necessary, but customers did, and the customers won out in the long run. That something newer and better follows the creation of an innovative product does not mean the first product wasn't innovative - that's the nature of innovation; it's technological and intellectual leapfrog.

I think the basic problem here is that you think history was right. That the things that happened were right, and they necessarily happened because they were right. And anybody who didn't think they were right must not have seen the history or something. I may dig into this a bit later.

No, I'm not saying history was right, just that it happened... That is, people encountered needs, and these previously unaddressed needs were addressed by PTP products and designs. You don't even seem to be aware of the problems, or the reasoning behind the development of the solutions, which is why I bring up context and historical perspective.

Did these products and solutions meet needs and solve problems that customer were experiencing and others weren't successfully meeting/solving? Yes. Were they the best answers compared to to some of those that we have 20+ years later? Probably not, but we also have the benefit of 20 years of trial and error to thank for that - that's called hindsight. So when you attack based on your feel that wings aren't needed on a frame, or that a threaded sear pin has no value, that may be due to your needs being different than the needs of many customers at the time - or a lack of understanding of the needs of customers at the time.

1. I have never found it necessary to separate the sear from the rail in-field (and almost never off field either). The last time I pulled a sear from one of my primaries was 4 years ago, and that was when that one was born. I do want it to stay in place, and threading’s not necessary for that.

Right, so your play style and field stripping needs and disassembly needs are different than other customers who encountered an issue in the past, at a time might I add, when a pressed pin would not have been possible with the rail design offered by AGD. What about a customer who switches between a mechanical frame and emag lowers? Or a mechanical frame and a pneumag frame? A press fit sear axle would hinder their ability to do so easily.

I (and most of my teammates) would strip our markers entirely to clean them after a tournament - some of us took gun hits which made cleaning the area between the rail and the body necessary, others had chops which ran through the body, but as a rule we'd strip down our markers and toss the bodies/rails/frames in the dishwasher. I know for a fact that other players did this at the time as well - I probably still have polaroids somewhere of 20+ mags in my old dishwasher. If it's necessary to remove the body on a classic marker, you run the risk of dropping the sear axle out, even if you're not intending to remove the sear.

2. Some generations of MM rely on the winged grip to retain the sear pin which seems like a bad idea in its own right. Which direction the smell blew in from is not really that interesting, unless you’re just trying to figure out which direction to run away from.

Right, so they addressed that on later models by making a threaded pin. They were working with the specs and design of the existing AGD automag rail at the time - for frame compatibility purposes? Or because it was easier to copy what was already there? They couldn't drop in a pin from the top because of the unibody design, so they did it from the side. Clearly they saw a need to improve and they did, by switching to a threaded sear axle in the third generation of their marker. The design of the product progressed and was refined over time. Can you beat them up for having an issue with an early model which was fixed by a later model?

3. I'm pretty sure it's inconvenient to be screwed out of a custom sear pin from PTP. Pretty sure. Especially when it shouldn’t have been necessary

Beat the dead horse one more time - nobody disputes that, but again it really has nothing to do with classic Micromags, with or without threaded sear pins.

I went through the same thing making my rail. When I started out, I decided to avoid the classic sear pin and the way that's done for the more sane overall RTP style.

But I struggled with how to cleanly produce the threads for the RTP pin when I realized, "Why the Hell am I making this harder than it needs to be? Press fit a pin and move on."

That was about 4 years ago. And again, that's not the only possible solution; I had alternates planned. But it works just fine and I'm not beholden to some absentee company for unnecessarily custom pins.

Compared to the classic setup, probably. I kind of wondered that myself, which was another reason I went away from the classic sear/axle.

Compared to a pin that is press-fit captive and riding against an extended bushing? Not sure. I do think the bushing has merit; more so than the threaded pin.

OK, so you leaned towards something that existed, ruling out an older design that didn't work as well, and ended up using a completely new design in the long run. Sounds familiar.

The bushing has merit to you now, but think about why you landed on it for your final product... You personally didn't have the need to remove your pin frequently, but the initial reason you sought alternatives was that didn't have the ability to produce the threads for the threaded sear pin. You were hindered by an inability to produce what you wanted initially, and found a different solution which you found met your needs and the needs of your customers. Will that change going forward based on the availability of new means, or the demands of customers? Will another person who does have the means to include an RTP sear axle or an alternative technology bring similar rail to market, would they find more or less success? Time will tell.

One of the things that sets current AGD users aside is that we play with a dead platform - we appreciate the merits of a design that has been effectively left behind by the industry. We are not the "typical customer" or we'd be playing with newer common designs or products to the exclusion of Automags, but we see merit in a design or product that meets our needs as customers but not the needs of the greater paintball market. Peoples enjoyment, use and collecting of PTPs older products are a microcosm of exactly what drives people to AGDs older products now.

You make springfeeds, rails, and magazines - those are innovative. They're unique designs which address a problem or need in the market utilizing new ideas or applying old ideas in new ways. With that said, they're a niche product, competing with a smaller number of competitors for a smaller group of customers than products offered by, say, Inception or Lukes. You're also designing these products for yourself, and sharing many of the designs - your goal isn't always to make a profit, to maintain or grow your market share. You have the benefit of working in less expensive materials, with previously unavailable technology which, while expensive for consumers is inexpensive relative compared to industrial machinery which is needed to use more expensive and in-demand materials. That doesn't detract from the quality of your products, or the benefits of your designs, in fact it benefits your model and creates a draw.

Regardless, if PTP used a solution that was technically better, but their results were still worse in some cases... That does not paint a rosy picture.

“We made all these technically awesome changes to the gun!”

“Then why does it still not chrono over 260?”

“Uhm… look at the pretty anodizing? SMOKEBOMB!”

You're talking about the MM2K9 again, which doesn't have pretty anodizing and has no bearing on the threaded sear pins they started offering 14 years earlier.

There weren't issues with the threaded sear pins on Gen3, Gen4, and Gen5. There weren't velocity issues, or detent placement issues, or any of the other issues which plagued the MM2K9.... This thread was created to address the things that make PTP markers attractive to collectors - most of whom focus on the 15+ old ones that work, not the two new ones that had design issues, production issues, marketing issues and customer service issues.

The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?

I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.