PTP Fascination

[MAGgot]

As for 'cockers, creating the first production halfblock has to mean something, as does adding a functional factory detent system.

They also made virtually all of the aluminum slider frames on the market (Benchmark, Pro-Line, WGP, KAPP, etc)

[Frizzle Fry]

They also made virtually all of the aluminum slider frames on the market (Benchmark, Pro-Line, WGP, KAPP, etc)

True... And were one of the earliest, if not the first 45...

I think one of the biggest things that speaks to them as a company is their relationship with Tom and Bud in their heyday.

[Nobody]

But PTP did make barrels... and they made them for ICD, Spyder, F1s, VM68s, Prolites, Sovereigns and many others - it wasn't "cheap-out" to them. Bud Orr made the choice to thread his cockers based on either having the tap on hand, or being able to buy it locally, or something - I don't remember the exact story but that's why it's such a goofy thread. Many other companies were pushing their own style of barrel attachment, thread patterns and otherwise, and for whatever reason PTP elected to use the type of threading that would go on to become standard but not until many years later despite having the tooling to utilize any thread pattern on the market. A few tap and die sets aren't much of an expense when you have millions of dollars worth of machinery in your shop.

Cutting threads onto a tube, on a lathe(i am assuming a manual lathe), is WAY different than cutting them with a tap and or die. There is a distinction.

Also, do not confuse selling barrels versus making them. Just as Smart Parts was the distributer for E lipse and Belsales products/guns; Armson mames the barrels. PTP sells the barrels. That is it. If PTP did make barrels. Why do they not make more or a 2 piece, or whatever? Its because Armson makes it. PTP just sells it for them in the US.

They weren't a "small shop" either - they were massive compared to the competition at the time, which is part of my point... if you look at a majority of custom guns from the era when PTP started you'll see a lot of simple, raw cuts, and a mishmash of aftermarket parts used on their markers. PTP made everything from the frames to the barrels to the feednecks to the velocity adjusters and bolts in house; the markers came fully upgraded and uniformly finished. Sure, BBT and Carter caught on and did the same but they still had a less uniform product line until years later, an a higher pricepoint.

Correct me if i am wrong. There is Forrest, Tracy & a 3rd person... Size is not a detriment to ability or quality of work. The finished product should determine that. Do not confuse it. It is not a bad thing. Many manufacturers started out small. Inception Desings is a small company, much smaller than what most people think.

I'm not saying that it's the best choice now, but it was then... they saw a problem and created a new solution. That's the definition of innovation.

I judge innovation as coming up with an idea that is different, but then becomes common place as the idea is so good that you can not do without it.

Mags had inferior detents (evidenced by the fact that they changed the design, albeit much later) so PTP made a better detent system. Autocockers had NO detent whatsoever, and custom shops were sticking the same wire detents on them that mags were using... PTPs design was superior to that, as well - even to early thread-in ball detents ("cocker detents") which were often mismeasured when done as a custom job, because PTPs could be adjusted forward and back by trimming the delrin finger. Has their detent been surpassed by several others since then? Sure. Doesn't change that it was innovative at the time.

Remember, since the start of paintball to maybe 96 or so, there were no detents on guns. Many guns did not have them. PTP just offered them as standard, as the rest of the industry was. Plus the early ones where done by people. Again, do not confuse people making a home mod versus a factory one. 2 different things.

I'd love to know what I've got wrong... PTP may have screwed up their products and customer service in recent years, but to anyone who was there and playing in the early and mid 90s it's undeniable that they were innovators in the field, were well ahead of their time with many of their products, and that they played a big part in the growth of the Automag platform almost from the start. I'd love to hear what Tom has to say on the subject, at least with regards to automags... As for 'cockers, creating the first production halfblock has to mean something, as does adding a functional factory detent system.

You are wrong on your assumptions. They had started a few things, but other people perfected them. The halfblock, aluminium mag bodies, 45 or double trigger frames. Yes, PTP was there first, but it doesn't mean they are the best. They do not make ARMSON barrels, they just sell them. They had problems with the 2k9 bodies, but barely made a mends to retify it near 7 years later, by all the moaning still done. Henry Ford didn't make the first car, or even the best car. He just made a car that he was able to get out to everyone. I do know you like them, love them and support them, but you have to look at that they are not on the pedestal that you have them on.

[going_home]

I'd love to hear what Tom has to say on the subject, at least with regards to automags...

From what I've seen of him on AO, I'd wager to say he's a man that would rather say nothing publicly if he had nothing good to say.

Tuna on the other hand tells it like it is.......

[luke]

From what I've seen of him on AO, I'd wager to say he's a man that would rather say nothing publicly if he had nothing good to say.

I remember a very specific comment TK made years ago on the subject. Right here on AO in fact, probably in the archives somewhere. It wasn't necessary derogatory but it was something that relates directly to parts of this discussion.

[blackdeath1k]

I started playing in 93-4. With a prolite. It had a detent from factory. Then my mag I bought the same year had the wire nubbin. The original spyders at the time had some sort of detent as well. So detents were present at the time. But I agree totally that ptp did a lot of stuff back then that nobody else did. They were a pioneer of innovation in the early 90s.

[Frizzle Fry]

Correct me if i am wrong. There is Forrest, Tracy & a 3rd person... Size is not a detriment to ability or quality of work. The finished product should determine that. Do not confuse it. It is not a bad thing. Many manufacturers started out small. Inception Desings is a small company, much smaller than what most people think.

Tracy, Forrest and Russell tackled the MM2K9 project, if that's what you mean. They have had different employees over the years and have grown and shrunk over the years, as well as relocating their production facilities and warehouse several times. I doubt anyone here thinks that Inception is more than a few people... We all know Simon, and many of us were here for the inception of Inception.

I judge innovation as coming up with an idea that is different, but then becomes common place as the idea is so good that you can not do without it.

That's an interesting perspective but it's simply not the definition of "innovation", nor the common understanding of it... Feel free to look it up.

Remember, since the start of paintball to maybe 96 or so, there were no detents on guns. Many guns did not have them. PTP just offered them as standard, as the rest of the industry was. Plus the early ones where done by people. Again, do not confuse people making a home mod versus a factory one. 2 different things.

I remember because I was playing and buying markers, and many markers at that... There were plenty of very popular markers with factory detents before '96, including Tippmanns in '89, Automags in '90, Illustrators in '91 and VM68s in '93. Autocockers were an oddball in that respect; the most popular semis had detents, they just tended to suck. Wires rusted, bent, cut paint, and got damaged. Foamy finger detents hardened over time and tore. Spring detents in Tippmanns were actually OK. PTPs detent was a better option.

I'm not confusing home mods with factory ones; I'm talking about the beginning of Autococker detents - Bud Orr didn't want to incorporate them, so they were offered only as a modification by proshops and custom shops, or an option on custom/private label markers. Most people were adding inferior wire detents, or drilling for threaded ball detents - I owned a BPS Express (my first 'cocker) with a misdrilled detent, and went on to buy a Skirmish 'cocker which had a similar problem, and a later a BBT which unsurprisingly had a poorly placed detent - this was not an uncommon issue. PTP offered a "factory" detent on their marker, which was essentially scratch built from a blank body rather than a marker purchased, customized and modified for resale (like most other offerings at the time) and the detent was superior to the other offerings of the time because it was generally perfect out of the box, but could be adjusted if it wasn't.

You are wrong on your assumptions. They had started a few things, but other people perfected them. The halfblock, aluminium mag bodies, 45 or double trigger frames. Yes, PTP was there first, but it doesn't mean they are the best.

Please point out where I said "best" - I simply said they developed those things first. That's innovation. They did a thing before anyone else did that thing, and many people decided to do the same thing as a result... for many years later, or after many years. Did others do it better? Sure, but somebody had to do it first... Somebody had to think of a new concept, or identify a need in the market and address it. That's what PTP did. Essentially the definition of innovation.

At some point they stopped innovating, at least in their own products. The designs stagnated, other than perhaps their work on the Emag frame, and shortly after they stepped away from their traditional marker platforms to sell products in the Milsim market and partner with VL for something different, while focusing on military contracts and other branches of the business.

They had problems with the 2k9 bodies, but barely made a mends to retify it near 7 years later, by all the moaning still done....

...I do know you like them, love them and support them, but you have to look at that they are not on the pedestal that you have them on.

Don't get it twisted, I don't support them anymore. I like Forrest and Tracy as people, but I got screwed on the MM2K9 just as hard as everyone else who bought it... I got two bodies and only one of them worked, and I never got the other stuff I paid for. What I did get was years late. I watched the 'cocker debacle go down on CustomCockers and it looks like others got screwed too, shame on them for not paying attention to the MM2K9 debacle and taking heed, or shame on PTP for using their past reputation to write a check they simply weren't capable of cashing? Probably a bit of the former and a lot of the latter.

What I love were their old products. What I'm saying here is that it seems like a bunch of people with a hair across their ass about a much more recent issue, who have no perspective on the past because THEY WEREN'T THERE, are trying to tear down every past success and innovation of a company who used to make top notch products based on a grudge and a genuine lack of information about the time period or the subject in general. Beyond which, they're effectively calling out anyone who supported a company in the past, or likes their old products, for what that company does now. Seems kind of silly to me. More than a little offensive, even, and I doubt I'm the only one who feels that way.



Lastly, before I shut up and ditch this forum once again...

If PTP is so bad, has such a horrible history of QC issues before the 2K9, then why did AGD partner with them to develop the Emag frame? Why did AGD partner with them to develop the FN303 and its predecessor prototypes? Why allow PTP to produce Automags, provide branded valves, etc? Both of those development partnerships happened after almost a decade of PTP making and selling Micromags... If Tom had such a big problem with their older products (almost all of which predate the partnerships, the MicroEmag being an exception), wouldn't he seek out someone else to work with? Or cut them off completely? He had a problem with the Colonial, and tried to put a stop to that...

Simply put I have owned MANY Micromags; bought many new, and many used... I tallied it up a few years ago with Saint Noir (who was playing at the time PTP started as well) and we came up with a number over 50. I never encountered a major QC problem with a Micromag before the 2K9, and fewer minor ones than with other high end markers of the era - I won't count sanding the breech so that the L10 will work properly. That's 50+ markers, and I know there are users here with one or dozens of them that are still going strong after 1-2 decades. They like them, they will keep using them, and after this thread they likely won't care what you think about it because they work and look good doing it.

[saintnoir]

hmmm..*looks around*......PTP....
ptp shark.jpg
they did some amazing things early on....and really jumped the shark with there mm2k9 and cocker return...but damm there is some real bitterness here...and i got hit on the mm2k9 and cocker...uggh

[GoatBoy]

[JKR]

So...much...hate...


As for me...nothing changes my love for my PTP Micromag.

micromag.jpg

[vintage]

So...much...hate...


As for me...nothing changes my love for my PTP Micromag.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]92286[/ATTACH]

thats one thing i've picked up on since i joined this forum. people hold onto hate here if they have ever been burn't by something, they never seem to let it go. i've been burn't(not here) and yea it hoovers but eventually i move on but always keep it in the back of my mind as a reminder of what can happen.

[going_home]

Just fun and informative .

Not hate, just no love , zero .

[MAGgot]

Sorry guys, super busy lately. I promise to keep it fun and informative.


BENCHMARK GRIP FRAMES

Do we need to discuss this?

I guess we do.

These grip frames suck. The frame is out of spec and the triggers are wobbly.

They're also heavy.

That is my picture up there. I picked it up around 2008, determined there was no better reason for me to own it in 2008 than there was in the 90’s and immediately sold it off. But not before I threw it on the scale because I am just wired like that.

Now, I think the body there is a little heavier than Maggot’s, so I’m conservatively saying it’s about 11oz. Probably closer to 12 but we’ll fudge that out.

The foregrip I think is about 6oz.

That leaves 7.8oz for the grip frame. Let’s round down to be nice. 7oz.

What does a plastic stock gripframe weigh?

Oh dear. So that 3-ish oz weight reduction you barely managed to get with the “unibody”? Obliterated when you put the Benchmark frame on. I’m not even talking about the milled or plastic rail anymore. Stock rail. Stainless body. Stock grip frame.

Sure, you can put a plastic frame on the Micromag if you want the weight savings back.

But you won't.

Why?

Because you wouldn't want to split up that beautiful matching anno pair.

So the artful anno job is actually screwing you over. You paid all that money for fancy design, advanced milling, high tech aluminum, artful anodizing... and you can't even beat a stock stainless mag with full rail and CF grip frame in the weight department despite all the advertising and testimonials that the Micromag is lighter.

So an aluminum .45 frame weighs more than a thin plastic one... that's your point? I guess you think the Emag frame, Intelliframe, all other aftermarket frames, etc are all trash too?

If the only thing that matters to you is the weight of a marker, just go play with a space *****! Why are you playing with a mid-90's mech?

[Walker]

Hmmmm... Interesting weight comparison.

It seems to me a better comparison would be a Micromag with it's Benchmark frame, and a Classic Mag with it's stainless body/aluminum rail and an aluminum .45 frame that was available when the Micromags came out (were there frames other than the Proline or Benchmark?). Comparing Apples to Apples, would the MicroMag be lighter? I'd also be curious as to the weight of a Classic with the plastic frame compared to above other setups.

Hmmm..... Another comparison might be a microEmag to a stock AGD eMag?

I use Benchmark frames on my Micromags, because they match the gun. I don't have any issues with them. If they are out of spec, what are they being compared to that was available at the same time? As to their wobbly triggers, what was available at the time to compare them to?


Walker

[kutter]

I find it rather amusing that some of you are having a discussion about shaving a couple of OUNCES from your gear. It reminds me so much of that fat guy in the bicycle shop (not saying anyone is fat by the way) that is weighing tires for his $5000 road bike to get the lightest one but has spent to much money on the latest 3000 calorie laden drink from Starbucks.

If you want a light gun, buy an Axe. You will have a soulless piece of equipment, but it will be light, efficient, and from what I can see, always work. As someone pointed out, comparing 90's tech to modern tech is just silly. If I can tote my VM-68 around for a 24hr scenario, then my Micro and E-mag seem light as a feather.

Oh yeah, if you are still hung up on weight, carry one less pod of paintballs, that will more than make up for the difference.

As for liking PTP, they did some really neat things for a long time, then the screwed it all up, that pretty much sums it up. I would love a 2K9 but I am not willing to take the risk to get one. Will build something else instead, probably a pneumag or ULT.