40 balls per second on Spyders... ?

[Raptor3359]

i did that fullauto thing RRfireblade was talking about with my piranha a while ago. did it with out paint because it looked cool. I tried with it with paintballs adn the first ball that was in the chamber shot but no balls even loaded after that, no chops, no shot, nothing it just cylced. Wont that mean that that the bolt wasnt coming back for the ball to enter the chamber? there was enough pressure, it was 95 out and i have an x-chamber and a 20oz tank.

[314159]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
The easiest way to find the true theoretical cyclic rate of the gun is to find out how much time in ms it takes the gun to complete 1 full cycle. You divide that number by 1000ms and you get the max cyclic rate of the gun.

If the cyclic rate exceeds this number you know for sure the gun is producing partial cycles.

i suppose i can whip out the storage oscilliscope tomorrow and rig something up, not going to have a chance today.

if that dosen't work well, the way i had originally planned it was to adapt this board i made for another gun for the blowback. the existing frame pulls the sear for 6ms. with the asumption that the gun is cycling lower than 167 cycles/second (this is proven because if it were greater than 167 bps, then the gun would fire multiple times when the sear was down for 6ms). so i would crank up the rof from 20 by 1 bps, fire for about 5 seconds, and listen for any irregularities in the sound. (skipping a shot... by making the sample time long enough, we can rule out the bolt moving back past and forward again after the sear is allready droped).

another idea that might work, i could hook up a mic to the input of my sound card, record a couple shots, note the amplitude. with the assumption that if the hammer does not go back all the way, it will hit the hammer softer, and make a quiter sound when it fires. then i could pull off the frame, pull the cocking thing back, let it go fa for a while, and look at the amlitude of the pops that it would make while firing, and compare em to the amlitude of the single shot pops.

[314159]

Originally posted by nerobro
So long as the gun is getting full pressure, it will cock back all the way. the gun can't "half cycle" so long as it's getting enough pressure.

Now, what you're thinking is when you hear a spyder fart on the field. that's usually due to a lack of pressure. that lack of pressure makes the hammer not come back all the way, and no, the gun doens't finish cycling.

we could also measure the pressure, and assume the gun is making a full cycle unless the pressure drops. i wonder what thoes nice liquid filled guages go for?

[Aranarth]

Way to do this is hook it up to a scuba, like with the emagnum at 30 bps. Record what spyder internals you are using, since it has so many (this includes manufacture and tension of springs). Make sure all the flow restrictions are removed, since spyders have a lot (those va's have tiny holes. . .) Then install the sear override already discussed. Get a digital tachometer. Aim it crosswise at where the the cocking rod is. Latch down the trigger, and read the tach.
The higher input pressure, and the stiffer springs (both main spring and valve spring), the faster it will cycle. I'd say get that scuba down to 1000 psi, open it all the way, and let it rip to empty.
That will tell you how many times a spyder or spyder clone will cycle. Within a good factor, close to its max. Of course, this is full auto, spyder style. Override the sear, so you have no sear cycle time to consider. You just gotta get something to force feed balls. Use a lower input pressure or weaker main spring to lower the cycle time to whatever your feed system can handle. Use a lot of spring swapping to get it within reasonable fps now. Thats the hard part.
Now if I just had access to a scuba tank, and a digital tach.
If someone does this, record the sound profile, or take a pic of the tach display for all you non-believers. I bet the spyder clones do higher than 40 though. Of course, paint soup is for dinner.
-AranarthX

[DarkPhoenix]

It is not that I don't believe a spyder can cycle at 40 cps. I just don't believe it can achieve a ROF even close to that number. It would be extremely hard to prove it anyway as I do not believe there is a force feed system out there that could supply the necessary feed speed to prove it.

[Butterfingers]

Woah, hold on a sec there. Not out to make enemies just sparking a little debate.



A full blast of air may make the hammer go back all the way at the expense of some speed. When the bolt is not half cycling the distance it has to cover now increases in order to perform a full cycle.

Ocilatory motion follows similar patterns and physycal laws as rotational motion. If you have a string and you spin it around in a circle with a radius of 10 cm if you increase the radius while the string is still in motion the velocity will still be the same but the distance it has to cover will increase and the cycles/revolutions per second will decrease.

I have had my E-magnum on 10 ms for a few hundred thousand dry fires and shots with no problems. Seems the geometry of the e-mag sear is "mechanically correct" The sear and bolt wear arises no concern. The RT bumper also remidies much of the bolt bounce. The Hyperframe and boo yah frames replace the RT bumper with a cheap plastic washer.

Originally posted by nerobro
well.. responce number one is DUH. Excuse the additude, but you're coming into this without data on your own part. ... and you're making assumptions that I'm "cheating" to get my numbers. i'm not, and I'm willing to go get more data to back it up.

So long as the gun is getting full pressure, it will cock back all the way. the gun can't "half cycle" so long as it's getting enough pressure.

Now, what you're thinking is when you hear a spyder fart on the field. that's usually due to a lack of pressure. that lack of pressure makes the hammer not come back all the way, and no, the gun doens't finish cycling.

It would be nice to have a number for how long a cycle takes on a spyder. That would probally be more accurate than having it go full cyclic for a seccond or so. Again, we'll have more solid numbers for you later. i'll tell you right now, i'ts much higher than 20 :-)

so on the e-magnum you can set sear duration... setting it down toe 10ms may cause problems.... According to tom at the tech sessions the hyperframes use a pulse 6-9ms and it can cause issues with eating up the sear or bolt. (not enough time for the bolt to stop bouncing)

[nerobro]

I think i have some slightly incorrect data on the emag. I'm going to have to ask a lot of questions later ;-) Again, I'll have some hard data for you later. 314159 and I will be at it as usual.

[314159]

http://9375.adahost.com/prod_det.asp?id=3239

"Emagnum Board - 20BPS anyone F/A
If you don't like being limited, capped or locked into an only semi mode. If you want the flexibility and the power to change every firing mode and characteristic such as dwell time and the like, look no further. Probably the best single performance upgrade for the AGD Emag.
$200.00"

i see 20 bps here, i have seen a emag shoot 20 bps, for everyone here that is saying 30 bps, where are you getting that number from?

[314159]

Originally posted by DarkPhoenix
It is not that I don't believe a spyder can cycle at 40 cps. I just don't believe it can achieve a ROF even close to that number. It would be extremely hard to prove it anyway as I do not believe there is a force feed system out there that could supply the necessary feed speed to prove it.

actually it is not that hard to prove, once i get the time that takes the gun to make 1 full cycle, we can use the loading time of others (the racegun croud looks like a good area) and get a maximum firing rof.

[314159]

anyone have the time that it takes a lvl 10 mag to make 1 full cycle? (sear down, till the time the bolt is back against the bumper) and cycling speeds for other configurations of mags? (w/ superbolt, and without superbolt)

[shartley]

Originally posted by 314159
http://9375.adahost.com/prod_det.asp?id=3239

"Emagnum Board - 20BPS anyone F/A
If you don't like being limited, capped or locked into an only semi mode. If you want the flexibility and the power to change every firing mode and characteristic such as dwell time and the like, look no further. Probably the best single performance upgrade for the AGD Emag.
$200.00"

i see 20 bps here, i have seen a emag shoot 20 bps, for everyone here that is saying 30 bps, where are you getting that number from?

Well, just to help you out....

What you quoted was an "official" statement. Want to see where they got the 30BPS from? Mind you this is full cycling, but no balls since no feeding system can load that fast.. but it IS verified... not just "theory", not "math", not conjecture or "sounds right".... actual proof.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39551

[314159]

Originally posted by shartley

more than one source is not needed when you are currently in the role of devil's advocate. i will put anything here that will prove my point (and tend to omit things that don't). if i would have posted the link that you posted it would not have helped my point.

i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.

Originally posted by Arturus

This thread wasn't started to challange, or have a debate about which gun can cycle/shoot the fastest.

Rather to gather and confirm what's true, so I can have a general idea of how Spyders will/can operate under the right conditions.

[Butterfingers]

Uh oh! you have disagreed with Shartley prepare for a beat down.

Originally posted by 314159


more than one source is not needed when you are currently in the role of devil's advocate. i will put anything here that will prove my point (and tend to omit things that don't). if i would have posted the link that you posted it would not have helped my point.

i figure my role is somewhat of a catalyst, i know that my posts are taking the thread away from it's intended purpose, but in hopes that it stirs up some real numbers that we can benifit from. one of thoes "the means justify the end" deals.

[shartley]

[nerobro]

I'm begining to believe 40 (the number that started this) is a LITTLE high. But as we saw Mr pirhana up there was getting 25 from his LP fatty striker gun. we shall see.. we shall see ;-)